given to Mr. Brady to put these excess cattle for a limited time on the land for purposes of count. There is a corroboration of the accused when the forest ranger admits that he had a hazy recollection of such consent having been given.

Mr. POOLER. Could I make one additional statement, Mr. Chairman?

Senator CAMERON. Yes.

Mr. POOLER. You understand, of course, that this is the supervisor's file. Under our system of files, there may be a district forester's file in the same case, and there may be and usually is a ranger file in the same case, depending, of course, in the first instance, whether the case reaches the district forester or not. But there may or may not be in the ranger's file more detailed information. I am not in a position to say as to that. I just want to make it apparent that the file that I have given you is the supervisor's file.

Mr. BOWDEN. Mr. Chairman, will you request the district forester to make a copy of the complete files in this case and that they be forwarded to the committee at its Washington address, 132 Senate Office Building?

Senator CAMERON. Mr. Pooler, will you do that, please?

Mr. POOLER. The complete files?

Senator CAMERON. Yes; the entire record.

Mr. POOLER. I will be glad to do so.

Senator CAMERON. Mr. Henderson, will you come forward, please? Please state your full name for the record.

Mr. A. S. HENDERSON (Patagonia, Ariz.). My name is A. S. Henderson. I live at Patagonia.

Senator CAMERON. What is your business?

Mr. HENDERSON. I am a stockman.

Senator CAMERON. How long have you been in this State, Mr. Henderson?

Mr. HENDERSON. About 35 years.

Senator CAMERON. You are an old-timer?

Mr. HENDERSON. I came here during Indian times and helped drive them out.

Senator CAMERON. Have you ever met this gentleman, Mr. Pooler, before?

Mr. HENDERSON. I met him at Patagonia one time. If the committee will allow me, I should like to ask him a few questions. Senator CAMERON. Proceed in your own way, now, and ask Mr. Pooler any questions you wish to. You may propound any interrogatory to him that you see fit.

Mr. HENDERSON. Well, I would like to ask Mr. Pooler how he arrives at a pro rata for allowing a man, say, five or six thousand head and another man who has been just as long a resident in this community as the first man less than 100 head in an application for grazing?

Mr. POOLER. The system under which grazing preferences are allotted on the national forest is in the first instance based upon prior usage. At the time the forests were created an attempt was made to establish as nearly as it was possible what the prior usage was, which accounts for some permittees being established on a large scale and others on a small scale. Under forest administration you own

ers have been allowed from time to time under the regulations of the Secretary of Agriculture, and parties meeting the general qualifications for a new beginner's status have been allowed to secure permits. Those permits have been subject to increases under conditions obtaining locally, but although many new owners have been allowed and many increases to small men have been allowed through a process of reducing the larger outfits, there still remain a good many large permittees on the forests, in some cases so located that there is no likelihood that they will have to be reduced for the benefit of a small man. Of course, nothing is gained by reducing a largesized outfit for the purpose of establishing a small man, unless the range is used in such a way that that end would be accomplished, and it is obviously unfair and has been recognized by the officers as obviously unfair to reduce one permittee for the benefit of another permittee, or a would-be permittee, unless the latter has some decided reason for preferential treatment.

Senator ASHURST. Did you make an application for a permit to graze cattle on some national forest?

Mr. HENDERSON. Yes, sir.

Senator ASHURST. Upon what forest did you apply for a grazing permit?

Mr. HENDERSON. The Coronado.

Senator ASHURST. And did you receive the permit?

Mr. HENDERSON. For a certain number of head; not as much as I wanted.

Senator ASHURST. How many?

Mr. HENDERSON. Seventy-five head, I believe.

Senator ASHURST. What was the number for which you applied? Mr. HENDERSON. I wanted to apply for 100 or 150.

Senator ASHURST. You found that the running of 75 cattle would be too small a number to bring any profit; isn't that true? Mr. HENDERSON. Yes, sir; that is true.

Senator ASHURST. Is it not a fact that the overhead and the general cost, excluding taxes possibly, of running 75 head is about the same as running a hundred or a hundred and twenty-five?

Mr. HENDERSON. Yes, sir; just about the same as running 300.
Senator ASHURST. Is it?

Mr. HENDERSON. Yes, sir.

Senator ASHURST. Have you any papers in your possession written by the Forestry Bureau or any of its officials?

Mr. HENDERSON. No; I have a letter here, though, that I would like to ask Mr. Pooler about.

Senator ASHURST. Let me inquire, before you get to that: You did not get your permit, then, for 100 head?

Mr. HENDERSON. No, sir.

Senator ASHURST. You only got it for 75?

Mr. HENDERSON. Sixty-five or seventy-five.
Senator ASHURST. When was this?

Mr. HENDERSON. For the last of this year and also during the five years past.

Senator ASHURST. Do you remember the case, Mr. Pooler?

Mr. POOLER. No, sir. I would not in ordinary circumstances act upon a case of that kind, but I might

Mr. HENDERSON. There is a letter here

Mr. POOLER. But I might add this, as a general policy, that there is a limitation to the permits or under the regulations as to the extent to which reductions for distribution purposes are permissible. It might be that on this range one could not approve for the full number without doing a serious injustice to others already established.

Mr. HENDERSON. I want to call the attention of the subcommittee to the fact that Mr. Pooler talks about a newcomer, a new settler. I desire to state that I was a settler on there before the forest was established. I had a homestead there and had the prior rights that anybody had in this settlement, and still I have never been able to get a permit for over 75 head with my land. I have a thousand acres of other land, and it seems I can not get any permit for over 75 head.

Senator ASHURST. You have a thousand acres?

Mr. HENDERSON. Of private land.

Senator ASHURST. Private land that you own within the boundaries of the forest?

Mr. HENDERSON. Yes, sir.

Senator ASHURST. How long have you owned that land?

Mr. HENDERSON. I have owned some of it ever since the forest was established, and some of it for the last eight or nine years.

Senator ASHURST. Do you mean to tell this committee that although you are the owner in good faith and hold titleMr. HENDERSON. Yes, sir; myself and my wife. Senator ASHURST. To a thousand acres of land

Mr. HENDERSON. Practically a thousand acres.

Senator ASHURST. Within the boundaries of the forest reserveMr. HENDERSON. Between the forest reserve; yes, sir

Senator ASHURST. And have been in this country for over 35 years, you can not get a permit for over 75 head of cattle? Mr. HENDERSON. Yes, sir.

Senator ASHURST. Well, you take it pretty coolly for a man who has been treated so outrageously.

Mr. HENDERSON. I can't get a permit for over 75 head without developing water on this range. According to what he says, I can't get a permit for over 75 head. It may be up on Old Baldy, for all I know. I can't get a permit for over 75 head without getting a permit from the two forest rangers who say water is developed, and I have had permanent water on both of those ranges for the last 15 years-permanent water.

Senator ASHURST. Mr. Pooler, can you give us any enlightenment or any information as to why a citizen who has been there so many years as Mr. Henderson, and the owner of a thousand acres, can not get a permit for over 75 head?

Mr. HENDERSON. There is another man, a newcomer there, that hasn't got as much land as I have, and he has a permit for a larger number than I. I don't want to object to his getting a permit, because a man has to have a permit for at least 300 head to make a living.

Mr. POOLER. I couldn't give an explanation of it off-hand. There are a number of hypotheses

Senator ASHURST. Pardon me, let your imagination go out on a remote excursion, and find one hypothesis that would exclude this man from a permit, especially when he has been there for 35 years, and has only 75 head. You will have to give your imagination the wings of the wind to find a reason to exclude a man who has been there for 35 years, and who has a thousand acres.

Mr. HENDERSON. Outside of the State lands, practically a thousand acres. For a number of years I had a school section rented640 acres.

Mr. POOLER. Well, I should judge there is a certain amount of water developed in that area. According to that letter, which I have never seen, it may be that there is no water on this range.

Mr. HENDERSON. Both these ranges have the best water on any forest in the State of Arizona. There is permanent water both places. I have permanent water on both ranges for the cattle, on mining claims. I had the mining claims before the forest was established. There is permanent water on them, and I am doing my assessment work on the mining claims. I develop water every year. There are none of those ranges but what have plenty of water, especially in ordinary years. But this year it doesn't matter much whether there is water or not, because there is no grass.

Mr. POOLER. Mr. Chairman, may I ask the witness a question? Senator CAMERON. Yes, sir.

Mr. POOLER. Is this 1,000 acres of land in mining claims?

Mr. HENDERSON. No, sir; patented land, practially a thousand acres-900-owned by my wife and myself. I have a thousand acres and mining claims outside of that. But I have permanent water on both of those ranges, that is, on the Santa Rita range and on the Red Rock range.

Mr. POOLER. I am sure the committee appreciates that in the handling of new owners the Forest Service has to keep in mindMr. HENDERSON. I want to object..

Mr. POOLER. The equities of existing owners, and has had to establish protective limits, and has had to establish certain rules as to the size of the initial permit, if a man hasn't had a permit, or the circumstances under which increases can be allowed. It comes down, of course, to a consideration of each individual case, as to whether it meets the requirements of the range, and the ownership of the equities of others, because there is not enough range to go around, and to accommodate everybody who wants range.

Mr. HENDERSON. I wish to object though, Mr. Chairman, to the forester referring to this case as being a new permittee, a newcomer. I have had a permit ever since there was a forest.

Mr. BOWDEN. Mr. Pooler, now that this matter of Mr. Henderson's has been called to your attention, you will be glad to go into it and see what the merits of the case are?

Mr. POOLER. Certainly.

Senator CAMERON. And report to the committee.

Mr. POOLER. Do you want a report on this?

Mr. BOWDEN. If you will, write us a letter at our Washington address, telling us what you find in the matter.

Mr. POOLER. I will.

Mr. HENDERSON. I want to say this, just as in Mr. Brady's case, I have been fined for trespass on the forest; without my knowledge or

anything else, they fined me $80 for a certain number of horses. I don't know whether they gathered them on the forest or gathered them on the outside.

Senator CAMERON. Did you pay the $80?

Mr. HENDERSON. Yes, sir; I paid the $80.

Mr. BOWDEN. Did they make any threat to you that they would take away your permit?

Mr. HENDERSON. Yes; I thought it was up to me. it, my permit would be taken away.

If I didn't pay

Mr. BOWDEN. Do you mean you do not remember clearly that they threatened to take your permit away from you?

Mr. HENDERSON. I am not positive. It might have been by letter. Mr. BOWDEN. Did they do it by letter or in person?

Mr. HENDERSON. Well, they might have done it by both.

Mr. BOWDEN. Who told you that you would likely lose your permit if you didn't pay the fine, do you recall?

Mr. HENDERSON. No, sir; I don't recall. I just dismissed it out of my mind.

Senator ASHURST. What was the name of the ranger who handled this case?

Mr. HENDERSON. I don't know, sir; I wasn't there.

Senator ASHURST. Mr. Pooler, do you know the name of the ranger that handled the case?

Mr. POOLER. I don't know that either, sir.

Senator ASHURST. Mr. Henderson, do you know the name of the ranger who handled the case where you applied for the 100 head? Mr. HENDERSON. Mr. Smith took the application.

Senator ASHUST. He is one of the rangers?

Mr. HENDERSON. Yes, sir.

Senator ASHURST. Is he here to-day?

Mr. HENDERSON. No, sir.

Senator ASHURST. You haven't seen him?

Mr. HENDERSON. No, sir.

Senator CAMERON. Well, Mr. Henderson, we will go into this matter and Mr. Pooler will make his report. We will be glad to give you every consideration possible.

Mr. BOWDEN. Mr. Henderson, will you write the committee a letter in the fall, advising us what action has been taken on this matter? Mr. HENDERSON. Very well, sir.

Senator CAMERON. Mr. Brady, I understand you desire to make a statement before we take our noon recess.

Mr. BRADY. Mr. Chairman, I just wish to state that the contention of the forest ranger is contradictory within itself, to this extent: If I have an allotment on the forest range, for the purpose of grazing 300 head of cattle; a drought is on-no feed inside of this allotment any more than on the outside of the allotment-what incentive would I have had to have put five hundred and some odd head of cattle more inside of this small area, where there was no feed, for a period of six months? As I say, that in itself is contradictory.

Mr. BOWDEN. It is pretty strong evidence that you didn't put them on there, isn't it?

Mr. BRADY. Indeed it is. As I said before, I am very sure I made every effort to keep the cattle out of there. In fact, I took some of