and therefore are assured of relief respecting drift fences. That is to say, you will not be required to remove these drift fences until this committee can make its report. That will afford some relief, will it not?

Mr. MCKINNEY. Yes; that will.

Senator ASHURST. And in view of the fact that public opinion is rapidly driving toward the leasing of public domain, if you are required to remove these fences, then you will be required to put the fences back again if the lands are leased.

Mr. MCKINNEY. The question I asked Mr. Murphy was this: If they demanded those fences be taken down and the bank wouldn't loan us some money, how were we going to take them down? We were busy trying to take care of our stock.

Senator ASHURST. You could not remove them?

Mr. MCKINNEY. It was impossible for me to remove them.

Senator ASHURST. You are not a permittee on any national forest, are you?

Mr. MCKINNEY. Not at this time.

Senator ASHURST. But you have been in years gone by?
Mr. MCKINNEY. Yes, sir.

Senator ASHURST. You have been raising cattle on what forest?
Mr. MCKINNEY. On the Coronado.

Senator ASHURST. That is the same forest Mr. Brady mentioned? Mr. MCKINNEY. Yes.

Senator ASHURST. And as such permittee there, did you ever observe any activity on the part of the Forestry Bureau toward reseeding or regrassing?

Mr. MCKINNEY. Not during the time I was there.

Senator ASHURST. Of course they charged and you paid your fees each year, as a permittee, to graze your cattle thereon?

Mr. MCKINNEY. Yes, sir.

Senator CAMERON. Are you leasing from the forest reserve or from the Indian Department?

Mr. MCKINNEY. Neither one. I have State lands. I have school sections leased, and the balance is public domain. It is on the strip between the two reservations.

Senator CAMERON. You are not on either reservation?

Mr. MCKINNEY, No.

Mr. BOWDEN. Is there any difficulty in dividing public domain between the users in your neighborhood at the present time?

Mr. McKINney. No.

Mr. BOWDEN. No friction?

Mr. MCKINNEY. My closest neighbor is 15 miles away on one side, and I think 30 on the other.

Mr. BOWDEN. Would you favor the regulation of grazing on the public domain?

Mr. MCKINNEY. Yes.

Mr. BOWDEN. Would you favor a per acre or a per head basis? Mr. MCKINNEY. Per acre; and that would be on the range conditions, taking into consideration also the rainfall.

Mr. BOWDEN. That is, in determining the amount that should be charged per acre?

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Mr. MCKINNEY. Yes; regulating the rate.

Senator ASHURST. Then, in fixing a rate per acre to be charged, you could not safely scale that according to grasses alone, because one year you might have forage and the next year none. Therefore you would have to take into consideration the nearness to market, the rainfall, and the proximity to other ranges.

Mr. MCKINNEY. That is very true, because some ranges would be closer to market. It would be less expensive to deliver your stock. Others would be farther away, which would entail a greater expense and greater cost of production.

Mr. BOWDEN. In other words, you would favor a policy based upon the commercial value of the forage on the particular land? Mr. MCKINNEY. Yes.

Mr. BOWDEN. Should any preference be given in letting leases? Mr. MCKINNEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BOWDEN. What preference should be given?

Mr. MCKINNEY. The party that is using the lands at the present time has improvements and owns lands near there should be given the preference.

Mr. BOWDEN. Who should determine that? Should it be determined by the Department of the Interior, or would you prefer having some local board?

Mr. MCKINNEY. It would be all right if there was some board to appeal to.

Mr. BOWDEN. You believe in these land questions that disputes affecting the property values should be settled, or there should be a right to appeal, on such disputes, to a board not appointed by the department?

Mr. MCKINNEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BOWDEN. And should that board be a local board or should it be a board in Washington?

Mr. MCKINNEY. I think partly local. It might be divided.

Mr. BOWDEN. The hearings should be held, I presume, on the field instead of in Washington? The expense would be so much less, and it is necessary, in order to settle most of these disputes, that you see the land in controversy anyway.

Mr. MCKINNEY. Yes.

Mr. BOWDEN. Would you put any limitation on the amount of land that could be leased to an individual?

Mr. MCKINNEY. No.

Mr. BOWDEN. Except having in mind the previous use of the land, and the division that has been made through custom and through

years.

Mr. MCKINNEY. Yes.

Senator ASHURST. I believe there is now a statute of this State recognizing prior rights on State public lands. That is, a cattleman who has for a long time, or who has first grazed his cattle thereon, would have some legal right so far as the law of this State is concerned, and you would expect that to be carried out by the Department of the Interior?

Mr. MCKINNEY. Yes.

Senator CAMERON. Thank you, Mr. McKinney. Mr. Ronstadt, you come forward?

will

Mr. J. M. RONSTADT (Tucson, Ariz.). Mr. Chairman, the only thing I would like to make clear is what I consider the most im

portant matter affecting the cattle industry at the present time, and that is the control of the public domain in some form.

Mr. BOWDEN. What areas in Arizona are you familiar with, Mr. Ronstadt?

Mr. RONSTADT. The southwestern part of Pima County, where I

range.

Mr. BOWDEN. There is considerable public domain there, is there not?

Mr. RONSTADT. Not very much, but there is some.

Mr. BOWDEN. Is it in large blocks or is it in isolated tracts? Mr. RONSTADT. Well, some sections in large blocks and some in isolated tracts.

Mr. BOWDEN. Do you see any objection to the policy of selling those isolated tracts?

Mr. RONSTADT. I see no objection to the sale of the isolated tracts. Mr. BOWDEN. Preference being given to the owners of the adjoining property?

Mr. RONSTADT. To the present users.

Mr. BOWDEN. Yes; or the present users of the range. Now, as to the large blocks, would you prefer the sale or the lease of those? Mr. RONSTADT. The lease.

Mr. BOWDEN. Would you prefer having the lands turned over to the State for leasing purposes or have the lease made by the Federal Government?

Mr. RONSTADT. Well, the management of the State would be all right, providing you could change the enabling act.

Mr. BOWDEN. Granted that there wasn't the limitation, or that the act be changed as to the sale or the lease of the lands.

Mr. RONSTADT. Yes.

Mr. BOWDEN. It seems it would simplify it a great deal if we had one department to administer it.

Mr. RONSTADT. It would simplify it if you could eliminate the minimum charge.

Mr. BOWDEN. Both for sale and for lease?

Mr. RONSTADT. Yes, sir.

Mr. BOWDEN. In your judgment, has the public domain been overgrazed?

Mr. RONSTADT. Yes, sir; it has.

Mr. BOWDEN. Part of the deterioration of the range is due to the overgrazing?

Mr. RONSTADT. Yes, sir; there is no question about it.

Mr. BOWDEN. Now, in determining the charge, should a per acre or a per head of livestock be used as a basis?

Mr. RONSTADT. A per-acre basis, I believe, in my judgment. Mr. BOWDEN. Should that be so much per acre, or should it be a lease of a certain number of acres, the rental charge determined by the number of head of livestock grazed each year?

Mr. RONSTADT. No; I think it should be a straight per-acre basis. Mr. BOWDEN. Are you acquainted with any of the national forests in this part of the State?

Mr. RONSTADT. Well, I am acquainted with some: not very many. I haven't had anything to do with the forests. We have always been on the public domain and on State lands.

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Mr. BOWDEN. Now, taking the State lands and the public domain, in your judgment which range is in the best condition, taking into consideration the difference in the land, of course?

Mr. RONSTADT. The land under control.

Mr. BOWDEN. Under a 10-year lease, is it your judgment that a ranchman would try to keep his range in good shape and not overstock it?

Mr. RONSTADT. He certainly would. It would be to his interest to do so.

Mr. BOWDEN. Now, in determining the length of the lease, would you make any recommendations?

Mr. RONSTADT. Yes; I should think a 10-year lease would be the proper thing.

Mr. BOWDEN. With the privilege of renewal?

Mr. RONSTADT. Of renewal; yes, sir.

Mr. BOWDEN. And the right to assign the lease?

Mr. RONSTADT. Surely.

Mr. BOWDEN. That would give a certain amount of property rights. That would encourage a man to improve his range, because he could assign it as a bonus if he wasn't going to use it himself.

Mr. RONSTADT. He could assign it and he could improve it, especially if he could lease it for what that land is worth; that is, what it could be used for by that stockman, at what he considers the value of that land; not at an arbitrary fee, because if we are going to have an arbitrary fee, we may not be able to pay the lease.

Senator ASHURST. In my various questioning of witnesses, not here but elsewhere, as to whether or not the National Forestry Bureau has ever reseeded or ever regrassed any of its domain I am met with the question, "Has the livestock producer ever reseeded or regrassed?" Obviously, the answer is "no," because he may be regrassing or reseeding, yet have no harvest. There is no incentive to a man to build up his grass and to reseed and replant, because he may never get the benefit of it; he may never reap. Is that true? Mr. RONSTADT. Not unless he can control it.

Senator ASHURST. So you think that a 10-year permit on the national forest, or a 10-year permit on the public domain, would induce the livestock producer to build up his land, increasing its productivity; is that true?

Mr. RONSTADT. It certainly would.

Senator CAMERON. Thank you, Mr. Ronstadt. Is Mr. W. L. Johnson present?

Senator ASHURST. Where do you reside?

W. L. JOHNSON (Tucson, Ariz.). I live out at Helvetia, in the Santa Rita Mountains.

Senator ASHURST. You are a stockman?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Senator ASHURST. Raising what?

Mr. JOHNSON. Cattle.

Senator ASHURST. How long have you been engaged in such occupation?

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, I have been at the present place about six years. I have been in Arizona about 15 years.

Senator ASHURST. And during that 15 years were you engaged in the grazing of livestock and cattle?

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, mighty near all the time. I was in Willcox before that.

Senator ASHURST. Are you a permittee on any national forest? Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Senator ASHURST. On what national forest?

Mr. JOHNSON. Coronado.

Senator ASHURST. And how long have you been such permittee? Mr. JOHNSON. Six years.

Senator ASHURST. Šix years past?

Mr. JOHNSON. It will be six years this fall.

Senator ASHURST. Now, how far is your winter range from your summer range? Or do you have the same range the year round?

Mr. JOHNSON. No; the mountain range is on the forest. I have that under fence. The lower range is in the valley on the public domain.

Senator ASHURST. Are you in favor of a proposition to lease the public domain?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Senator ASHURST. Give your reasons why you have such an opinion.

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, it ought to be controlled in some way so that we could keep these wild horses and one thing and another away from the places of water. I have my mountain range fenced, and then at the lower part, where the public domain is, I have watering places, and all around that are wild horses.

Senator ASHURST. In other words, if the public domain is fenced, and you take a lease for any part of it, you can control it? Mr. JOHNSON. I can control it; otherwise I can't.

Senator ASHURST. Now, if you can not control it,naturally there is no incentive for you to spend money and your labor in improving and developing water, and naturally you are not going to regrass, reseed, or reforest where you may never harvest.

Mr. JOHNSON. No; never get any benefit of it.

Senator ASHURST. What do you say about these grazing fees? Should they be increased or decreased?"

Mr. JOHNSON. I think they should be decreased.

Senator ASHURST. You have heard the chairman of this subcommittee make a statement that the fees for the first half of this year have been suspended?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, sir.

Senator ASHURST. What relief, if any, did that bring to the cattlemen here?

Mr. JOHNSON. Quite a bit.

Senator ASHURST. You have heard his statement that the grazing fees for the remaining half of this year will probably be suspended or canceled. Will that give additional relief?

Mr. JOHNSON. It surely will.

Senator ASHURST. Have you any drift fences, or do you use any drift fences on the public domain?

Mr. JOHNSON. No, sir.

Senator ASHURST. You do not?

Mr. JOHNSON. All of my fences are on the forest.

Senator ASHURST. Did you build or cause to be built these fences on the forest?