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Senator ASHURST. You think it is the constant uncertainty as to whether they will have the range or not that keeps the cattleman and sheepman in doubt?

Mr. KINNEY. Yes, sir.

Senator ASHURST. Is it your experience that men are reluctant, or slow to develop water holes, watering places for their cattle, if some other men can bring their cattle in there and water them at will?

Mr. KINNEY. Certainly, they overstock the range; get what they can out of it while the getting is good. They haven't anything permanent to look forward to.

Senator ASHURST. Whereabouts are your ranges?

Mr. KINNEY. In the Altar Valley, southwest of here 40 miles, beginning 40 miles southwest.

Senator ASHURST. How do you feel about the public domain being leased? Would you favor a per head basis or a per acre basis?

Mr. KINNEY. A per acre basis; in my judgment, a per acre basis. Senator ASHURST. I believe you said you had no cattle on the national forest?

Mr. KINNEY. Not at this time; no. I have had cattle on the national forest. I don't like it.

Senator ASHURST. Now, of course, the National Forest Bureau charged you a fee?

Mr. KINNEY. Yes.

Mr. ASHURST. For grazing your cattle there?

Mr. KINNEY. Yes, sir.

Senator ASHURST. Did they ever reseed or reforage any of this country that they charged you for?

Mr. KINNEY. No.

Senator ASHURST. Did you ever notice the forest reserve officials active in destroying predatory animals?

Mr. KINNEY. No.

Senator ASHURST. Have you any prairie dogs in this country? Mr. KINNEY. Well, we haven't many prairie dogs here; not many. Senator ASHURST. Then when you pay fees to the National Forest Bureau of our Government for grazing they took no pains whatever to reforage or reseed, and destroyed no predatory animals so far as you know?

Mr. KINNEY. No.

Senator ASHURST. Rather a harsh landlord, isn't it?

Mr. KINNEY. It seems so.

Mr. BOWDEN. Do you favor turning over of the remaining public lands to the State?

Mr. KINNEY. Well, personally I would favor turning it over to the State. It is more local. Of course, that has its drawbacks as

well.

Mr. BOWDEN. What are some of the drawbacks?

Mr. KINNEY. Politics is the greatest drawback.

Mr. BOWDEN. In your judgment, how does the State leasing system work out in Arizona? How has it worked out?

Mr. KINNEY. Well, lately it has been very good, but when the distribution was being made there were lots of difficulties, which was quite natural, I suppose, caused by different viewpoints of equitable rights to lease.

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Mr. BOWDEN. You would probably have some of that same difficulty if a leasing system were established on the public domain, wouldn't you?

Mr. KINNEY. Well, I rather think that the people are educated to the point of desiring to have the public domain under some sort of lease. Personally, without ever having received an acre of public domain, I would like to see it under control. It is a great menace from many angles.

Mr. BOWDEN. It is true, isn't it, that the range has been badly overgrazed?

Mr. KINNEY. Badly overgrazed.

Mr. BOWDEN. We have had administration of the forest ranges for some time. Are you fairly familiar with the grazing conditions on some of the forests in this State?

Mr. KINNEY. Yes; I think so.

Mr. BOWDEN. With what forests are you fairly familiar?

Mr. KINNEY. The Tonto and Coronado.

Mr. BOWDEN. Now, take the Tonto Forest-has the natural flora been enriched there as a result of forest administration?

Mr. KINNEY. Well, it hasn't been, as far as we are concerned. Mr. BOWDEN. From your knowledge of forest grazing areas, has this conservation policy of the forest done much to improve the grazing area, the range?

Mr. KINNEY. I don't think so. I have avoided the forests, for the reason that they had different viewpoints from what I had on the handling of the forest and of the grazing.

Mr. BOWDEN. Where you use the permit system, like they have on the forest reserve, you have to part with a considerable portion of the supervision of your own livestock, don't you?

Mr. KINNEY. You surely do.

Mr. BOWDEN. Whereas if you used a per-acre basis and had a tract of land, you would retain practically all that supervision?

Mr. KINNEY. Yes; and if you have the 10-year lease in effect, the cowman will improve his range, try to improve, and will conserve it, in my opinion, much better than some administration that has a large territory to cover. They understand local conditions, and they certainly will have the value of the range at heart if they know that it will be available to them for a term of years.

Mr. BOWDEN. You know you have got it for so many years and it isn't going to be taken away from you, either?

Mr. KINNEY. That is the idea. It has many angles.

Mr. BOWDEN. There is a good deal of instability on the forest ranges?

Mr. KINNEY. There certainly is. We left our Tonto forest for the reason that we didn't know whether we were going to have it from one year to the other.

Mr. BOWDEN. Even with a 10-year permit there is some redistribution and some likelihood of reductions in number to an extent that it is fairly uncertain, isn't there?

Mr. KINNEY. If it were changed to an acre basis, there would not be in that case, not as far as the administration is concerned, would there?

Mr. BOWDEN. No; I think you are right there. Now, is there, to your knowledge, much land in forests in this State that is not valuable for timber purposes or not valuable for watershed purposes?

Mr. KINNEY. Well, there is a great deal of forest in this part of the country that is not valuable for timber or for watershed, as far as I am able to determine.

Mr. BOWDEN. Take it on the Tonto Forest; what is the condition there?

Mr. KINNEY. Well, the part that we had might have been of value as a watershed. It drained into the Salt River. But as a forest it had no value. I don't see the value of this country from a watershed standpoint-very little of the forest here.

Mr. BOWDEN. A great deal of it is not timbered with commercial timber, either, is it?

Mr. KINNEY. Very little of it.

Mr. BOWDEN. It could be well put into a grazing district and administered as grazing lands, could it not?

Mr. KINNEY. Yes.

Mr. BOWDEN. Would you favor a homestead law providing for the homesteading of large areas of grazing land?

Mr. KINNEY. No.

Mr. BOWDEN. In your opinion, has the 640 stock-raising homestead ever been successful?

Mr. KINNEY. NO; I don't know of a single case; but it may have benefited a few stockmen.

Mr. BOWDEN. Would you favor the policy providing for the sale of public lands in large tracts?

Mr. KINNEY. Why, I would favor the sale. However, at this time one can not own their grazing land. They can't pay the taxes in many cases, although we have hopes that conditions will change. Any provision providing for the sale in large tracts, in my judgment, would be a wise provision.

Mr. BOWDEN. Would you favor a lease for a term of 10 years, with an option to renew, or to buy at a price to be determined by the lessee, the Government, and perhaps a party selected by the two, or some board of appraisers, or something of that kind?

Mr. KINNEY. That, I think, would be a good provision.
Mr. BOWDEN. And extend the term for a period of 10 years?

Mr. KINNEY. It would be a wise provision. More money, probably idle money, might be invested in property that might be purchased for a reasonable figure.

Mr. BOWDEN. Would you want to put a limitation on the amount of land that any one man could buy?

Mr. KINNEY. I would not put any limitation on the amount. It does not work out, in any event. The beat that, you know, by hiring purchasers. The tax provision will remedy that. If one has more land than can be successfully used the overhead will cause him to turn it loose.

Senator CAMERON. In other words, a man can not purchase for that reason more land than he can actually use beneficially?

Mr. KINNEY. He can't afford to have land that is idle under the tax system.

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Senator CAMERON. Thank you, Mr. Kinney, very much. Is Mr. Brady present?

RICHARD G. BRADY (Tucson, Ariz.). Yes, sir.

Senator ASHURST. Mr. Brady, you were born in Arizona?
Mr. BRADY. Yes.

Senator ASHURST. You are in the stock business?

Mr. BRADY. Yes, sir.

Senator ASHURST. Raising cattle?

Mr. BRADY. Yes, sir.

Senator ASHURST. How long have you been in such business or occupation?

Mr. BRADY. Ever since I can recollect, sir.

Senator ASHURST. Do you hold a permit to graze livestock on the Government national forests?

Mr. BRADY. Yes, sir.

Senator ASHURST. What forests?

Mr. BRADY. On the Coronado, northeast of the Catalina Mountains.

Senator ASHURST. And how long have you been a permittee on the national forests?

Mr. BRADY. Ever since it was started-1906.

Senator ASHURST. What grazing fee do you pay to graze your cattle on the national forests?

Mr. BRADY. I think I am paying now around 70 cents; on account of the improvements that I have had there I think there was some reduction made. I have had some very peculiar experiences with the forest department.

Senator ASHURST. If you prefer, you may just go ahead and state your case without being questioned.

Mr. BRADY. The beginning of my difficulty with the department was this: After being at the present location where I am now from 1889 to the time that the department created this law in 1906 I was on unsurveyed Government land, and consequently could not take a homestead. Nevertheless, I located there and decided in my mind to take 160 acres, which I did. In 1906, soon after the forest was created and soon after one of our forest supervisors was over there, I found a notice at one of my springs at my home door reading this way: "These lands are reserved for the purpose of range headquarters, and you will not be allowed to trespass on the ground."

There was a Mr. Selkirk at that time, the head of the department, or in charge here. I came to him and asked him what he meant by trying to dispossess me of my rights as a citizen of the United States. He answered that the springs were needed by the forest department for the purpose of making headquarters, and that, consequently, I would have to vacate. To make a long story short, gentlemen, I very foolishly fought the forest department for several years, at a cost of probably $5,000.

I had Mr. Hildreth, of Phoenix, attend to my case, and we also hired or had our present judge, Sawtelle, to look after my case. He went to Washington once or twice for me. I was determined on account of the importance of the place to me to hold it if I could. I found I couldn't do very much good until I met Mr. Pinchot at Santa Barbara some years afterward. Before this, however, I

pleaded with Mr. Selkirk that it was very unjust on his part to cause me the trouble of going to law to defend myself or to defend my rights; that I had located there for the purpose of homesteading this place, and that I had raised my family there, and it was foolish for me to fight the Government. I told him to be just and let me have this peaceably, and so on, which he wouldn't do. 1 met Mr. Pinchot at Santa Barbara and gave him my version of the matter. He immediately said, "Mr. Brady, you go home and rest in peace." He says, "I will see that you are not bothered any

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I came home, and a few days after that Mr. Selkirk came over and apologized, saying that he had gotten a letter from Mr. Pinchot, and he wanted me to know that Mr. Pinchot had attended to the matter promptly. After that I got along very nicely with the other supervisors.

Senator ASHURST. Now, at that juncture I might suggest that a stockman who did not have the money to pay his fare to Santa Barbara could not have obtained justice.

Mr. BRADY. No, sir; he could not.

Senator ASHURST. You happened to be fortunate enough to make a trip to Santa Barbara or you would not have obtained justice?

Mr. BRADY. I always believed this: That the intent of the laws that are created in this country is the very best on earth. It is just a question of interpretation by those who are in charge of the laws. That has been my theory all the time.

Knowing that I used to tell my wife, and I used to tell myself, that if I could ever get to Mr. Pinchot-not knowing Mr. Pinchot, however--that I thought that I could get justice. I saw where Mr. Pinchot at that time was on a fishing expedition down at Santa Barbara, and I thought it was a good chance for me to see the man. Senator ASHURST. You went there as a fisher, but for a different purpose. You went there as a fisher of men?

Mr. BRADY. Yes.

Senator ASHCRST. Let me see if I can get it clear for the record just what it was they were attempting to do to you. You had established a ranch home and permanent improvements?

Mr. BRADY. Yes, sir.

Senator ASHURST. And the forest ranger then decided that he would locate that for a ranger station?

Mr. BRADY. Yes, sir; notified me by letter that that place was chosen a headquarters.

Sena ASHURST. Was there no offer to compensate you for your improveants that you had made there?

Mr. BADY. Not at the time; no.

Senator ASHURST. Was there ever any offer made to compensate you for the improvements that you had put there?

Mr. Br. No, sir.

Senator ASTEST. Am I correct in assuming that the forest ranger or the authority in charge tried to appropriate all the benefit of your labor?

Mr. BRADY. Why, as far as I know. That was all that was told me. It was never told me that I would be reimbursed for anything that I had there, any more than a notice was placed there that I

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