Mr. JENKINS. Down timber and scrub-growth timber: wood that is fit for nothing except firewood.

Senator CAMERON. As the matter now stands, you are almost cut out from delivering wood to Douglas or any place around here on account of the importation of wood from Mexico free of duty?

Mr. JENKINS. Yes, sir; free wood from Mexico and cheap labor in Mexico. This condition exists, you might say, at Douglas. Naco. Nogales, and all ports of entry in our country along the border. Of course, it has no reflection upon the forests of the northern part of the State, where they are away from the border.

Mr. BOWDEN. If the fee charged by the Forest Service for this wood were remitted, could you still carry on this wood business?

Mr. JENKINS. I really don't think we could from the observation I have taken of the matter. There is the difference between the price of cutting wood in Mexico and delivering it into this country and the price of the farmers and small cattlemen and contractors, something like $2 per cord.

Mr. BOWDEN. And the Government charges, or the forest officials collect a fee of 25, 50, and 75 cents?

Mr. JENKINS. Mostly 75 cents per cord.

Mr. BOWDEN. Did you say that governmental agencies were buying this wood from Mexico?

Mr. JENKINS. Yes.

Mr. BOWDEN. You have had quite a sale of wood from this reserve to military reservations and governmental institutions?

Mr. JENKINS. Yes; Camp Harry J. Jones, Fort Huachuca, and Fort Bliss, they all use wood.

Mr. BOWDEN. Have you any recommendations to make on the amount of money charged for this wood by the Forest Service?

Mr. JENKINS. Well, the way it stands at present it is not any too exorbitant except for down timber and débris. They are glad to get it away from the forest because of the fire hazard.

Mr. BOWDEN. And the Forest Service charges for taking of this wood solely for the purpose of making a profit therefrom? Mr. JENKINS. Yes; I presume so.

Senator CAMERON. Thank you, Mr. Jenkins. Now, are there any other cattlemen who would like to make a statement?

STATEMENT OF FRANK C. POOLER, DISTRICT FORESTER,
ALBUQUERQUE, N. MEX.

Senator ASHURST. For the purpose of the record you might state what composes the district we are in?

Mr. POOLER. This is the southwestern district, which includes the national forest areas of Arizona south of the Colorado River and New Mexico, district No. 3.

Senator CAMERON. And all this is under your supervision?

Mr. POOLER. Under my supervision, from Albuquerque, N. Mex. Senator CAMERON. You have listened this morning to the statements being made. Now, have you any statement you would like to make relative to the forest department?

Mr. POOLER. I would like to say just this in connection with the statement made by Mr. Mabry, I believe. I haven't any specific information on that, but it would be the policy of the Forest Service

to grant a refund under conditions like those mentioned, and of course I have no information as to why the refund was not made. It is one of our aims, in the case of newcomers, a man attempting to get a permit on the forest, to require the development of water if there is no water readily available. Now, in this case I don't know what the circumstances are surrounding it. I will be very glad to inquire into that.

Senator ASHURST. Assuming that the facts are substantially as Mr. Mabry represented them to us, your office would be inclined, as a matter of justice, to make a refund or give him his permit to run the cattle?

Mr. POOLER. Well, I would want to investigate the matter of the permit very closely, because it is a matter five years old, and I do not know what the circumstances are there, but under those circumstances unquestionably the man was entitled to a refund, and we would be very glad to take the proper action.

I

Senator CAMERON. Would you like to go into this matter thoroughly and report to this committee some time later the full facts? Mr. POOLER. I will try to get a statement from the local man. would like to add this in connection with this matter of cordwood. You understand, of course, that the Forest Service made a charge for dead cordwood material, dead material of any kind where it is being used for, where it is being sold, where you are dealing with a commercial project, and that is the theory on which that charge is made. We make no charge for domestic use, but a wood business built up on the sale of green or dead timber or cordwood there would be a charge.

Senator CAMERON. Where does the distinction come between 25, 50, and 75 cents per cord?

Mr. POOLER. As I understand it, for this forest 25 cents is the minimum in certain localities in this particular division of the forest, and I think on the Coronado Forest as a whole there are no sales made at less than 50 cents, and that is the dead-wood rate as I understand it, and 75 cents the green-wood rate.

Senator CAMERON. Trees that are cut down?

Mr. POOLER. Yes.

Senator CAMERON. Don't you believe, Mr. Pooler, that under the existing conditions confronting us with cordwood coming in from Mexico that you could afford to eliminate that charge on wood in this forest reserve. The settler is shut off from making a livelihood from an industry that looks to me beneficial to the Forest Service in having their down timber cleared up.

Mr. POOLER. There might be some further consideration there, Mr. Chairman, based upon the desirability of moving at least the dead timber, and perhaps an industrial situation. It would be worth while looking into that and seeing if there were some special conditions here that would justify some concession in the matter of the charge.

Senator CAMERON. It doesn't seem hardly fair to the citizens here that the Government should have to go to Mexico to get their fuel for the soldiers?

Mr. POOLER. Of course, as I understand it, the differential is more than the amount of the stumpage, so that as a matter of fact I do

not know whether any modification in stumpage charges would have any influence on the situation. It is barely possible that Mr. Schofield, who is the local forest officer, might throw some additional light on that, and I would be very glad to have you hear from him on the subject.

Senator CAMERON. There is one other question I would like to ask you, Mr. Pooler, and of course I don't know whether you are prepared to answer it or not, but the question seems to be of most vital interest to the cattlemen here to-day, the elimination of the forestreserve fees for the balance of the year 1925, would your department be willing to recommend this to the Department of Agriculture?

Mr. POOLER. The district is very fully aware of the drought conditions, and I personally feel, and I know Colonel Greeley feels, that even though we might have rains in the relatively near future, a great deal of damage and harm has been done, and those rains would probably not affect the future, that drought conditions will still prevail more or less throughout the balance of the year, and the district and the Forester are both favorable to an extension of the period of free grazing on account of drought conditions for the Arizona forests.

Senator CAMERON. There is no question in your mind, Mr. Pooler, that the President has the power to suspend fees if he sees fit, especially with the recommendation of the Forestry Department?

Mr. POOLER. Why, certainly I feel that he has absolute authority, and certainly under the resolution that was passed there is no question that the President has authority to waive the fees under drought conditions.

Senator CAMERON. Well, there is no question but what the drought conditions exist.

Mr. POOLER. Absolutely not.

Senator CAMERON. It is only a short time now until July 1. I had this matter up with the President just before coming out here, and I know he is favorable to that suspension. Of course, he would prefer, and I think it should be done by your department, and I would be glad to have you as a representative of the forest department, as Colonel Greeley is not here, make that recommendation.

Mr. POOLER. I have already done that, Mr. Chairman, in recognition of the situation, and I think Colonel Greeley, in fact I know that Colonel Greeley has made his recommendation to the Secretary-whether it will reach the Secretary or not I don't know, but he feels there is a great deal of merit in the contention that there should be a waiver for the balance of the year. He is entirely in sympathy with this under the drought conditions prevailing.

Senator CAMERON. Now, is there anyone in the house who would like to ask Mr. Pooler any questions? Have you anything further to say? You are going to be with the committee right along?

Mr. POOLER. Yes, sir.

STATEMENT OF CARL B. SCHOLEFIELD, FOREST RANGER, PORTAL, ARIZ.

Mr. BOWDEN. Over what forest do you have supervision, Mr. Scholefield?

Mr. SCHOLEFIELD. Paradise district in the Chiricahua division of the Coronado National Forest.

Mr. BOWDEN. What do you know about the sale of down wood in that forest?

Mr. SCHOLEFIELD. There is lots of it.

Mr. BOWDEN. Is there still a great deal of wood being sold there? Mr. SCHOLEFIELD. Very little.

Mr. BOWDEN. Did you hear Mr. Jenkins testify here a few minutes ago?

Mr. SCHOLEFIELD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BOWDEN. Have you any comments to make relative to his testimony?

Mr. SCHOLEFIELD. Only that the local wood contractors are unable to compete with the Mexican Government.

Mr. BOWDEN. Mr. Scholefield, would it be a benefit to the forest to have the down wood cleaned out?

Mr. SCHOLEFIELD. Absolutely.

Mr. BOWDEN. But under the present market conditions you are not getting it cleaned out as rapidly as you would if there was a market for this wood?

Mr. SCHOLEFIELD. No.

Mr. BOWDEN. Then, in reality, wouldn't it be a benefit to the forest if you charged no fee for this down wood?

Mr. SCHOLEFIELD. Well, the fee that is being charged is a mighty small price. It is right down to rock bottom now, and it is a charge that has always been in effect in all commercial sales where a charge is made.

Mr. BOWDEN. Isn't is true, Mr. Scholefield, that the only reason for charging this fee is for the purpose of making a profit?

Mr. SCHOLEFIELD. For administration purposes; no profit.
Mr. BOWDEN. It is based on the cost of administration?

Mr. SCHOLEFIELD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BOWDEN. Do you consider it costs 50 cents a cord to administer the cutting of this wood?

Mr. SCHOLEFIELD. In some places; not all.

Mr. BOWDEN. In your district would you say that the administration cost would be anywhere around 50 cents a cord?

Mr. SCHOLEFIELD. It doesn't run that high.

Mr. BOWDEN. Isn't it true, Mr. Scholefield, that you could permit the cutting of this wood without increasing your administration cost at all on that forest?

Mr. SCHOLEFIELD. If the demand was high enough, our administration would be higher. Under the present demand for wood from our local forest, the administration cost is very low.

Mr. BOWDEN. Over what area of the forest that you have supervision of is there commercial timber?

Mr. SHOLEFIELD. The cordwood?

Mr. BOWDEN. Saw timber.

Mr. SCHOLEFIELD. All areas over 7,500 feet elevation.

Mr. BOWDEN. What percentage of the forest that you have supervision over has saw timber?

Mr. SCHOLEFIELD. One-third.

Mr. BOWDEN. And two-thirds doesn't have saw timber on it?

43213-25 PT 4- 4

Mr. SCHOLEFIELD. Yes, sir.

Senator CAMERON. Does that affect any watershed?

Mr. SCHOLEFIELD. Yes, sir.

Senator CAMERON. What?

Mr. SCHOLEFIELD. The San Pedro, and all of this level country here; a good many of the valleys.

Mr. BOWDEN. The administration of the forest there is necessary for the protection of this watershed, in your judgment?

Mr. SCHOLEFIELD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BOWDEN. Well, if you have no saw timber on over two-thirds of the area

Mr. SCHOLEFIELD. Our forest area covers this woodland type.
Mr. BOWDEN. And that does aid the water protection?

Mr. SCHOLEFIELD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BOWDEN. Is there any restriction on the amount of wood that can be cut?

Mr. SCHOLEFIELD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BOWDEN. What are the restrictions?

Mr. SCHOLEFIELD. We remove all dead and down timber, and mature green timber where the demand exists.

Mr. BOWDEN. Well, do you reserve any of that green timber?
Mr. SCHOLEFIELD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BOWDEN. How much can be cut, what are your regulations relative thereto ?

Mr. SCHOLEFIELD. Cutting the green timber?

Mr. BOWDEN. Yes.

Mr. SCHOLEFIELD. As I said, we remove all merchantable timber that is mature, and dead and down timber from an agricultural standpoint, we remove all dead and down timber as far as there is a market for it. We could supply about 10,000 cords a year. Senator CAMERON. How much are you selling now?

Mr. SCHOLEFIELD. About five or six hundred cords.

Senator CAMERON. If this situation was straightened up here on the Mexican border you would probably sell a great deal more, wouldn't you?

Mr. SCHOLEFIELD. I believe so.

Senator CAMERON. It is a case where we have got to get back to protection again, isn't it?

Mr. SCHOLEFIELD. We are interested in the marketing of this timber where it is going to be a benefit to the forest, watershed, grazing, etc.

Mr. BOWDEN. You heard Mr. Pooler's recommendation relative to the grazing fees?

Mr. SCHOLEFIELD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BOWDEN. Do you concur in those recommendations?

Mr. SCHOLEFIELD. Yes, sir.

Mr. BOWDEN. Do you wish to make any comment on the system used in the forest in giving out permits based on a charge per head instead of being based on a charge per acre?

Mr. SCHOLEFIELD. I believe that the system in effect now seems to be the best.

Mr. BOWDEN. Would it not reduce the administrative supervision if you leased this area by the acre?

Mr. SCHOLEFIELD. I don't think so.