little over 1,000,000 acres of the public domain is located outside of the States just named. Forest areas in other States total 5,661,000 acres. The grazing of live stock upon these forest lands located in Eastern or Central States is not a very considerable problem at this time.

The present public domain is the residue of the land area of the States concerned, which has remained after meeting all demands since the opening of the States to settlers for free homesteads and after making of grants to States for school purposes, grants for railroad, road, and trail construction, and reservations for reclamation, national parks, Indians, and for national forests.

Except for the making of reservations of Government lands for specific uses and in respect to control of minerals, the only Federal plan or policy that ever has been formulated or applied is that of reserving the land for possible settlement, just as was done in the older sections of the country where all land had sufficient agricultural value to cause it to pass into private ownership in units of 160 acres. In comparatively recent years Congress has provided for giving homesteaders units of 320 acres and 640 acres of lands too poor in character to justify attempts to utilize them for any type of crop farming. A considerable part of the homesteads of different sizes which were taken up in the last 10 years have been abandoned by those who settled upon them. It appears that practically all the lands in any way or degree suitable for farming uses have passed out of the hands of the Government. The present public domain can be used only for grazing by live stock, and it is estimated that only about 70 per cent of the area has any considerable value for that purpose. It is also estimated that at the present time approximately two and one-half million cattle and ten million sheep are grazed upon the public domain of the 11 Western States during some part of

the year.

The stockmen have never been permitted to buy or lease these lands or to acquire any form of legal status in their grazing use. The erection of fences to control grazing and prevent overstocking is illegal. There can be no security to the stockman who would invest in wells or tanks to provide the stock water necessary to the fullest and most efficient utilization of the forage growing on these lands.

Controversies and conflicts have arisen in the past. To-day the principal abuse is in the tendency to injure the forage stand by overgrazing, and it is entirely probable that the usefulness of these lands to the Nation, under the present lack of system, will greatly be lessened as time goes on. This would be unfortunate from the standpoint of national interest and also in consideration of the livestock industry of the States concerned.

The proper conservation and utilization of the grazing resource upon the public domain can not be secured without giving the users thereof some form of definite tenure or security that will justify and permit the observance of proper grazing methods and the investment in fencing, water development, and better animals, without which fully efficient livestock production is impossible.

For the grazing now obtained from the public domain no payment is made. Competition for leasing or purchase of other lands to furnish feed or grazing when the stock can not be kept on the public do

main has brought investments and expenses to a point that fully represents all that the business can afford to pay. The high expense of handling the stock and moving it over great distances, the unavoidable, heavy losses and the long distances to market all go to put the users of the public domain in such a position that they can not undersell or have any real advantage in competition with other livestock producers who own or fully control lands of higher value and which they are free to manage and dispose of as good business practice may dictate. If it should be decided that some form of charge should be made for the use of the grazing on the public domain, it is proable that the stockman would not object to such payment if they were given security in the present and future use of the grazing and thereby enabled to make the land more productive and to place their business upon a definite and secure basis.

Until 1905 the grazing of livestock upon national forest lands was wholly unregulated. When the control of these lands was transferred to the Forest Service of the Department of Agriculture a permit system was introduced to regulate the grazing of livestock. This was wholly a secondary consideration in connection with the conservation of timber. The grazing of livestock upon national forest lands is nowhere mentioned in Federal law. The beneficial work of the Forest Service in this connection during the last 20 years has been handled entirely under the general powers of the laws relating to forests, which gave to the Secretary of Agriculture power to make necessary rules and regulations to accomplish the objects of the law.

During the fiscal year 1923, 36,000 stock owners in the Western States grazed 1,750,000 cattle and 6,371,000 sheep upon the forest lands during some part of the year. For the most part, the forest lands furnish grazing during the summer months for periods ranging from 4 to 12 or 14 weeks. In the Southwestern States the portion of the year during which stock can remain upon the national forest is much longer.

During the last fiscal year the Forest Service collected from owners of stock grazed in national forests $1,915,561. The collections from sales of timber amounted to $3,036,395. Under the law, 25 per cent of these amounts was refunded to the States in which the forests were located, and 10 per cent of the amount was used in the construction of roads and trails.

The Forest Service's plan of giving grazing permits has recognized the claim of the early settlers who used the lands prior to their reservation for timber purposes. Preference has also been given to settlers and owners of property useful mainly for livestock production and in connection with which it was necessary to use the forest lands during the summer months. To a considerable extent, the grazing upon the forest lands has been improved. The stockmen have been benefited by protection against unpermitted users who would otherwise have overstocked the land and interfered with the real rights of those to whom permits have been issued. During the last four years western stockmen have been seriously disturbed by the policy adopted by the Forest Service in respect to

the raising of charges for the grazing and the continued reduction in the numbers of livestock which the old users are permitted to graze upon the forest. It appears altogether necessary and desirable that Congress should define, in as much detail as may be deemed wise, the plan and policy of the regulation of the grazing and thus instruct the executive officers as to the methods to be followed in the administration of details and matters which can not fully be covered in the law in a way to meet varying conditions of locations and

seasons.

It was these considerations that brought about the drafting and the passage by the Senate on January 31 of Senate bill 2424. This bill included provisions determining the amount of charges for grazing upon the national forest, for increasing the proportion of such revenue returned to the States, and for giving the stock owners an opportunity for appeal from decisions of the officials of the Forest Service. This bill was not considered by the House Committee on Agriculture and Forestry until February 24, and was not reported. While the committee has authority to investigate and recommend regarding other phases of public-land and national-forest affairs, it is particularly desirable that the first attention should be given to the present problems of livestock grazing on these areas. With the experience gained from 20 years of regulation of this grazing upon the national forests, by a Government bureau having unlimited powers, it should not be very difficult to define the governmental plan and policy regarding this phase of the question for the future. When this is done, it will be found that the essential principles have been clarified and doubtless can be incorporated into a plan for the regulation of grazing of livestock upon the public domain in a way that will be fair and beneficial to the Government, to the States, and to the livestock industry.

TABLE I.-By States, area of public domain and national forests and percentage of each to area of State

[Not including reservations for parks, Indians, or reclamation]

TABLE II. Cattle and sheep grazed on national forests
[Livestock figures for numbers in States and grazed on forests, as of 1923]

Senator CAMERON. Mr. Chairman, would it not be a good idea to have the Phipps bill made a part of the record?

The CHAIRMAN. If that is the pleasure of the committee.

Senator CAMERON. I now move that bill S. 2424 be made a part of our hearing.

Senator SPENCER. I second the motion.

The CHAIRMAN. Without objection it is so ordered.

(The bill referred to is here made a part of the record as follows:)

AN ACT To reduce the fees for grazing livestock on national forests Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That on and after the passage of this act the maximum and minimum rates of fees for grazing each class of livestock on national forests shall be, respectively, three-fourths of the maximum and minimum rates of such fees in effect on January 1, 1924, except that the rates of fees for grazing for any period shorter than one year shall not be less than 20 cents per head on cattle, 25 cents per head on horses, 12 cents per head on swine, and 5 cents per head on sheep or goats.

SEC. 2. That 50 per centum of the grazing fees received during any fiscal year from each national forest shall be paid to the State or Territory in which the national forest is located, to be expended for the benefit of the public schools and public roads of the county or counties in which such national forest is situated.

SEC. 3. (a) That there is hereby established in the Department of Agriculture a board to be known as the "Board of grazing appeals" (hereinafter referred to as the "board"), to be composed as follows:

(1) Two members who shall represent the Department of Agriculture and shall be officers or employees of the United States serving in such department, to be appointed by the Secretary of Agriculture.

(2) Two members who shall represent the livestock-grazing industry, to be appointed by the Secretary of Agriculture from persons whose names are submitted to him by livestock associations under regulations prescribed by the

Secretary.

(3) The four members thus appointed shall select a fifth member of the board, who shall represent the public, and such appointment shall be subject to the approval of the Secretary of Agriculture.

(b) One of the members first appointed by the Secretary shall be appointed by him for a term of two years, one for a term of three years, one for a term of four years, one for a term of five years, from the date of the passage of this act. The selected member and his successors shall serve for a term of

43213-25-PT 1-2

'one year. Thereafter the term of each appointed member of such board shall be four years, except that any individual chosen to fill a vacancy in the office of an appointed director occuring prior to the expiration of the term for which his predecessor was appointed, shall be appointed only for the unexpired term of such predecessor. Any vacancy in the board shall be filled in the same manner as the original appointment and shall not impair the power of the remaining members to exercise the functions of the board. The members representing the livestock-grazing industry and the public shall serve without compensation, except reimbursement for travel, subsistence, and other necessary expenses incurred in the performance of the duties vested in them by this act. The members representing the Department of Agriculture shall serve without compensation, except that received for their service in such department and reimbursement for travel, subsistence, and other necessary expenses incurred in the performance of the duties vested in them by this act. (c) The board shall meet on the call of the Secretary of Agriculture, and at such places as he may determine.

(d) The Secretary of Agriculture shall furnish the board with such clerical assistance, quarters, stationery, furniture, office equipment, and other supplies as may be necessary for the performance of the duties vested in them by this act.

(e) The expenditures of the board shall be paid upon vouchers approved by the board signed by the chairman thereof. For the expenditures of the board for the fiscal year ending June 30, 1925, and annually thereafter, there is hereby authorized to be appropriated, out of any money in the Treasury not otherwise appropriated, the sum of $5,000.

SEC. 4. (a) That appeals may be taken by any owner of livestock grazed upon a national forest, from any administrative order, action, or decision of the forester in respect of

(1) The revocation of permits to graze livestock on a national forest; and (2) The making of reductions in the number of livestock admitted to a national forest under a grazing permit.

(b) The board shall make such investigations as it may deem necessary for arriving at a just determination of the matter brought before it on appeal.

(c) While an appeal is pending before the board and before final decision is rendered by the board no action shall be taken by the Secretary of Agriculture to enforce any order, action, or decision from which the appeal is taken. Decisions of the board on any such appeal shall be final.

SEC. 5. The board shall make such regulations as it deems necessary for the efficient administration of its functions under this act.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Sherman, you have previously advised me that there has been a tentative draft of a bill made providing for leasing the public domain and on which the Department of Agriculture and the Department of the Interior are in harmony. my understanding about that correct?

Mr. SHERMAN. Yes, sir.

Is

The CHAIRMAN. I have here a copy of a bill furnished me by Assistant Secretary Finney of the Interior Department. Would you mind examining this bill and see if it is the bill to which you refer?

Mr. SHERMAN. I have examined the copy furnished by you and find that it is identical with the bill we have.

Senator SPENCER. I make the motion that the draft of bill that has been tentatively agreed upon, both by the Department of Agriculture and the Department of the Interior, as desirable legislation, be incorporated in our record at this point.

Senator CAMERON. I second the motion.

The CHAIRMAN. Without objection it is so ordered.

(The draft of bill referred to is here made a part of the record, as follows:)