public domains at the present time, and even if it rains it won't help them for some time to come. They are paying for these public domains, and not only not getting the use of them but having to haul feed to them, and I would like to go on record as in favor of giving these people free use of the public domain for all of 1925 and all of 1926.

Mr. BOWDEN. As cashier of the Bank of Douglas, your opinion is based upon first-hand knowledge? Mr. CROWELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BOWDEN. You are acquainted with the financial condition of the stockmen in this part of the State?

Mr. CROWELL. I have been in the banking business here since 1917. There is a misinterpretation among the laymen to-day as to what the War Finance Corporation and the Federal reserve bank are doing for the stockmen. Just yesterday in commenting on the failure of a bank in New Mexico recently they said, "What is the matter with the Federal reserve bank?" The Federal reserve bank is not making any gifts. Whenever banks get assistance from the Federal reserve bank or the War Finance Corporation they have to take the very best notes out of their note boxes and they have to be adequately secured, and whenever you borrow from them to any extent they not only require your best notes but they require from 25 per cent up additional collateral, so that it really does not help the situation to the extent that the general public thinks it does, and what I think we need to-day is absolutely free grazing for these men and any other help that the Government can contribute.

Mr. BOWDEN. There is another matter coming up in these forests down there that interests the committee, and that is the sale of wood for fuel purposes; are you acquainted with that particular problem? Mr. CROWELL. To some extent.

Mr. BOWDEN. Do you know whether or not there are considerable importations of wood from Mexico to Arizona and New Mexico? Mr. CROWELL. Not in New Mexico; there might be in Arizona, but not in New Mexico.

Mr. BOWDEN. There is in Arizona, do you say?

Mr. CROWELL. I am not familiar with it, but not to my knowledge in New Mexico.

Senator CAMERON. Has the Federal Land Bank of Berkeley made any loans here?

Mr. CROWELL. Their help has not been of any benefit to cattlemen; they made some loans north of here about 25 miles to farmers, and in my opinion a great many of the loans were very ill advised.

Senator CAMERON. It is my understanding that the intermediatecredit bank is supposed to make loans to cattlemen.

Mr. CROWELL. The trouble with the intermediate-credit bank is just the same as with the Federal reserve bank, they do not give the men any help because you have to give first-class paper adequately secured to get it, and the banks are not having trouble with that class of paper. As long as their paper is good they are not having trouble in getting rediscounts, and the help extended by the intermediate-credit bank and other governmental agencies does not, in my judgment, benefit the cowman. That statement does not extend to the Federal land bank, because I think they have done a world of good.

Senator CAMERON. In all cases they require a counting of the cattle?

Mr. CROWELL. Yes, sir; and in these governmental agencies they will frequently come to your ranch and want to count your cattle when you are right in the driest part of the season and will insist on a count of these cattle in the driest periods when it means a heavy loss to the cowman.

Senator CAMERON. In fact, it would be almost impossible?
Mr. CROWELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BOWDEN. From a banking standpoint do you see any use in changing the Forest Service fiscal year from April to July? Mr. CROWELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. BOWDEN. Will you state your reasons therefor?

Mr. CROWELL. The average cowman will market his cattle in June or May, and nine times out of ten when this forest fee comes along the 1st of April it will be necessary for some bank to loan his customer the money to buy feed until he markets his cattle.

Senator CAMERON. În your judgment the stabilizing of the tenure of the stockman on public lands would better his standing with the banks, is that true?

Mr. CROWELL Very materially.

Senator CAMERON. Would you favor the leasing of unreserved public lands over a period of years?

Mr. CROWELL. Yes, sir.

Senator CAMERON. Would you be more willing to grant credit to a stockman who had a lease for a certain period of years?

Mr. CROWELL. Yes, sir.

Senator ASHURST. At the present time the resolution passed by Congress provides for the return of cattle from Mexico until January 1 of next year free of duty?

Mr. CROWELL. Yes, sir.

Senator ASHURST. Have you any expression to make as to the continuance of that resolution?

Mr. CROWELL. Not at this time. If we get a good season this year I can see no advantage in a continuance, but that should be left in such a condition that if our physical condition requires it that it should be done without forcing these people to bring their cattle out regardless of range conditions.

Senator ASHURST. You should notify Congress.

Mr. CROWELL. We will notify them early of it.
Senator ASHURST. We thank you.

Senator CAMERON. The committee will recess until 2.30 o'clock this afternoon.

AFTER RECESS

The subcommittee met at 2.30 o'clock p. m., pursuant to recess at 12 o'clock noon.

Senator CAMERON. Gentlemen, we will come to order. Now, who will be the first man to come up and give us some more information? We would like to have all of the stockmen give their testimony before we start on the mining law problems.

STATEMENT OF MR. E. H. REEVES, OF TOMBSTONE, ARIZ.

Mr. REEVES. I want to say that I am particularly in favor of leasing and leasing on the acreage basis instead of per head.

Mr. BOWDEN. Have you any information to give relative to the grazing fee that should be charged for the remainder of the year on the forests?

Mr. REEVES. On the forests I have no interests whatever.

Senator CAMERON. No interests whatever?

Mr. REEVES. All of my grazing is on State lands and on public domain.

Mr. BOWDEN. Are you acquainted with the grazing conditions on the various ranges near here; I suppose that you are?

Mr. REEVES. I can not say that I am near here; no, sir.

Mr. BOWDEN. Would you favor the enactment of a law providing for the sale of isolated tracts of public domain in this part of the country?

Mr. REEVES. Well, if it was on the basis of the valuations of the State I would not.

Mr. BOWDEN. I mean on a proper valuation?

Mr. REEVES. I would think better of leasing.

Senator CAMERON. I do not suppose you have given that matter much thought, not enough to decide which way you would perfer to have it?

Mr. REEVES. Not in regard to that. So far as State land is concerned I believe the cattleman is much better off to lease the land on the basis that they charge than to buy it on the basis of $3 an acre. Senator CAMERON. Under the enabling act that is what you have to pay?

Mr. REEVES. Yes; and the cattleman can not afford to do it. Mr. BOWDEN. In other words, the land is not worth that much? Mr. REEVES. It is not worth it; no, sir.

Senator CAMERON. Thank you, Mr. Reeves, very much. Now is there anyone else in the room who would like to make a statement? You know we are trying to get the facts and we want everything we can get while we are here.

STATEMENT OF MR. J. N. HUNSAKER, OF DOUGLAS, ARIZ.

Senator ASHURST. Mr. Hunsaker, you said that you did not wish to cover ground already covered this morning but you wished to make a statement covering the public domain.

Mr. HUNSAKER. I think it would be a good thing to lease the public domain. In our district around here there is very little land open. Most of it is taken one way or another, but places where they have got much public domain I think it would be a great thing for the cattlemen and the Government also.

Senator ASHURST. You say you think it would be a great thing for the cattlemen and the Government also. You are quite familiar with the cattle business and your opinion may be valuable. Give us the reasons why you formed that opinion.

Mr. HUNSAKER. Well, when you go on the public domain, in so far as the stock business is concerned, on the most of it that is open you would have to develop water and things of that kind, which

people can not afford to do unless they have some certainty of using the range for a good many years, like the 10-year grazing permit. The stock business is kind of a slow long-drawn-out game; it tak s you a good while, and I think the land would be better taken care of and better used if it was so they could lease the land and handle it that way.

Senator CAMERON. Have you any cattle on the forest reserve?
Mr. HUNSAKER. Yes, sir.

Senator CAMERON. This morning in the hearing before the committee it was suggested that the suspension of forest fees would be in the nature of a gift?

Mr. HUNSAKER. I don't understand it that way. You see we have had to haul lots of feed and it is going to cost us more by the time it rains to keep our cattle alive this year than our expenses ordinarily would be for a two or three year period, and for that reason, and other conditions that come up, it has put us in bad shape, and I believe we should be entitled to the land without any fees for this

year.

Senator CAMERON. In other words, the Government has nothing to sell you, have they?

Mr. HUNSAKER. No; they have not so far as range and water is concerned. Water is kind of scarce, and it didn't rain enough last year to make any grass.

Senator CAMERON. In other words, it is simply a question of where, at the best, you are going to be a loser?

Mr. HUNSAKER. Yes.

Senator CAMERON. And the help you expect from the Government you are justly entitled to on account of the conditions now existing? Mr. HUNSAKER. Well, the expenses we have had to keep cattle alive at all until it rains are going to be such a drain on us that we feel that we can not afford to pay the grazing fees.

Senator CAMERON. What length of time, Mr. Hunsaker, do you think the suspension of fees ought to be extended to?

Mr. HUNSAKER. Well, we suggested in our report this morning for the balance of this year, but it will take us more than one year to recover the losses we are going to have.

Senator CAMERON. Probably it will take you more than two years? Mr. HUNSAKER. More than two, very likely.

Mr. BOWDEN. Upon what forest do you graze cattle?

Mr. HUNSAKER. Upon the Chiricahua National Forest.

Mr. BOWDEN. That forest is chiefly valuable for grazing purposes, isn't it?

Mr. HUNSAKER. Well, parts of it, and parts of it has lots of timber. Mr. BOWDEN. Are there parts of that forest that does not contain, or will not contain, timber in commercial quantities?

Mr. HUNSAKER. Yes; I think there are parts of it in the foothill country that would not be classed as forest land, small trees, but not heavily forested.

Mr. BOWDEN. Would you recommend that that land be taken out of the forest reserve and placed in the grazing district?

Mr. HUNSAKER. Well, I don't know whether I would or not. I have never given that any thought, and I don't know just what kind of arrangements would be made in case it was taken out. In our division where I am at we have been getting along very nicely. It

seems like sometimes they want to charge a little high for feed, but outside of that we have been getting along pretty nicely. I hadn't really given that much thought, and I would not want to go on record on that.

Mr. BOWDEN. Do you wish to state your opinion as to whether these public lands, if leased for grazing purposes, should be leased on the per acre basis or on the per head basis?

Mr. HUNSAKER. Well, personally I would prefer the acreage basis. Mr. BOWDEN. You would prefer that in all the forest reserves, would you?

Mr. HUNSAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BOWDEN. Do you see any objections to the leasing of that land on the per acre basis in the forest where you graze cattle?

Mr. HUNSAKER. No; I think it would be the proper way to handle it.

Mr. BOWDEN. Would the leasing of the land on an acre basis reduce the administrative interference with the users?

Mr. HUNSAKER. I think it would.

Mr. BOWDEN. It would require less Government supervision; is that true?

Mr. HUNSAKER. I think so. In my opinion all the Government would need in that case would be an inspector to get around once in a while and see that it was not abused.

Mr. BOWDEN. Under the present system used on the forests the supervision of your cattle is taken away from you to a considerable degree by the Forest Service?

Mr. HUNSAKER. Well, I can not say that it is. In my case it is not. I have heard a good deal of dissatisfaction from other parts of the country, but in our district, known as the Sunset division, as I said a little while ago, we have gotten along very nicely. They have not interfered at all.

Mr. BOWDEN. Have you a 10-year permit?

Mr. HUNSAKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BOWDEN. To your knowledge have other permittees in the forest in which you range received their permits?

Mr. HUNSAKER. Well, I think so; all that applied for them, so far as I know. Some just had temporary permits.

Mr. BOWDEN. Would you recommend the creation of a board or commission to settle disputes arising between the permittees and the Forest Service?

Mr. HUNSAKER. Well, I think it would be a good thing in case of disputes, probably both for the people in the service and the permittees, too.

Senator CAMERON. We thank you very much, Mr. Hunsake. Now, is there any other gentlemen who wish to be heard?

STATEMENT OF MR. D. A. ADAMS, OF DRAGOON, ARIZ.

ول

Mr. ADAMS. Well, I am not on the forest and know but little about it. My holdings are mostly State lands.

Senator CAMERON. You are not on the public domain?

Mr. ADAMS. Nothing except a few acres. Now, we leased our land a few years ago-about six years ago-and since we leased it and fenced that land it seems that mineral claims are existing on