Senator CAMERON. And you say there is very little timber, if any? Mr. SNYDER. You might find a few pines. Mr. BOWDEN. To your knowledge there hasn't been any timber, is that true? Mr. SNYDER. Well, I think a long time ago a little stuff was cut in the early days by mining companies. Senator CAMERON. Do you have any knowledge at the present time of the area of the Coronado National Forest Reserve? Mr. SNYDER. No, I don't; because it extends over several mountain ranges besides ours. Mr. BOWDEN. Have you any expression of opinion you wish to make, as to whether you would rather have the forest reserve administered by the Department of the Interior or by the Department of Agriculture? Mr. SNYDER. I would think it would be better for the Department of the Interior, because I can not see-I don't see why they shouldn't do it just as efficiently and cut down its expenses considerably. Mr. BOWDEN. Do you think there is any need or occasion for having a board created to pass on disputes between forest reserve officers and the permittees? Mr. SNYDER. I think it would be a help to both sides. Mr. BOWDEN. It relieves the forestry of being both judge and prosecutor. Mr. SNYDER. That is true; and the present rules and regulations, it seems to me, are arbitrary and autocratic, and you can not get a bunch of men but what will take advantage if they have the power. There probably wouldn't be many appeals. Mr. BOWDEN. Now, would you prefer to appeal to your local Federal court or a board of this kind? Mr. SNYDER. I Would be willing to have an independent and impartial board. I think it would be better, because one of them could come out and investigate on the ground. Senator ASHURST. Human nature I have found is the same on the Coronado Forest Reserve as it is in any other part of the world; if men have absolute power for a long time they are inclined to abuse it. I mean no reflection on any particular set of men. Now, when we had the income tax we had one agency, and they gathered evidence and settled the amount you had to pay; Congress found that that was unjust and created a board of appeals. Now you think a board of appeals would be a good idea? Mr. SNYDER. Yes. Mr. BOWDEN. Owing to the expense of taking appeals to Washington, would you prefer to have boards created for the various districts? The board in Washington, I imagine, would be very cumbersome. Local boards would be much cheaper and more satisfactory. Mr. SNYDER. I would like to go on record that I would much prefer a per acre system of leasing than a per head system. Mr. BOWDEN. The Forest Service has followed this policy, that the forage ought to be worth the commercial value of it. Do you favor that policy? Mr. SNYDER. Well, it seems to me to be an equitable way of getting at it. It looks like the commercial policy would be as equitable to one as the other. Mr. BOWDEN. Has it been brought to your knowledge that a number of ranches have sold at certain prices because of their proximity to a grazing range where the fees heretofore have been low, or lower than what is now proposed. Mr. SNYDER. Unquestionably; and I think that is one reason why the Forest Service feels the rate should be made bigger. Mr. BOWDEN. Now, if you raise the fees on the forest to as high a point as the traffic would bear, would it not take away a part of the property value of those ranges? Mr. SNYDER. It is bound to. Mr. BOWDEN. Then the raising of the fees to as high a point as the traffic will bear has a tendency to confiscate property values already established? Mr. SNYDER. Yes, sir; it would have that effect. Senator ASHURST. Now, respecting forest fires, there is a general impression prevailing among people who are not informed that the fires are patrolled and kept down by the Forest Service. Isn't it fact that when a fire breaks out the citizens of the country, permittees and other citizens, always respond and fight the fire at their own expense and at great sacrifice? Mr. SNYDER. We are supposed to help out. Senator ASHURST. And you do it? Mr. SNYDER. We do it, anyway. Senator ASHURST. Isn't it a fact that the permittees and citizens generally help put out fires in the forest? Mr. SNYDER. Yes, sir. Senator ASHURST. And so far as being opposed to the forests, the local citizens always protect the forests; isn't that true? Mr. SNYDER. Yes, sir. Senator CAMERON. Thank you, Mr. Snyder. STATEMENT OF MR. THOMAS MABRY, OF APACHE, ARIZ. Mr. MABRY. I made an application several years ago for a forest permit adjoining my homestead, and they accepted my permit for 25 head of stock to graze on the forest, with the understanding that I was to water this stock at my home; and after receiving that permit, why, they objected to my using it because there was a fence built between my homestead and the forest. I said that I would put in a gate on that lane, and then I would build a lane from home, from the forest to my homestead, which was a distance of half a mile. The forest ranger said it would be impossible for the cattle to travel from the forest to my homestead, which was half a mile. They said I would have to develop water on the forest reserve. When I made application to graze cattle on the forest they accepted my fee of a dollar per head for two years, and they also staked out a tank site. I believe the tank, according to the ranger's stakes-he surveyed it, and the first rain came and washed it out. There was one year gone that I lost my grazing fee. The next year I had the same thing, and we had no rain; consequently I couldn't graze the cattle there. That was the second year I paid a grazing fee and got no use of it. Consequently I put those cattle on the market and took the market price for them, and I think I have a kick coming. Senator CAMERON. And you want to be reimbursed for the fees you paid out on the forest reserve? Mr. MABRY. I want a grazing permit on that forest adjoining my homestead. It corners on my home. Now, I have a family out there; I have a large family; I have a wife and six children. The oldest boy is 19 years old and the youngest 3; and if I can't get some relief, I have got to leave my home and go away. Senator CAMERON. Have you a homestead of 160 acres? Mr. MABRY. Three hundred and twenty acres. Senator CAMERON. And you have never been able to obtain a permit you obtained a permit, but you never could use it? Mr. MABRY. I obtained a permit, but I never could use it. Senator CAMERON. And you paid your fee? Mr. MABRY. I paid my fee for two years. Mr. BOWDEN. Why couldn't you use that permit? Mr. MABRY. They claimed it was impossible for me to graze those cattle from my homestead. Mr. BOWDEN. Who told you that? Mr. BOWDEN. Where is his home? Mr. MABRY. Tucson; he is not in the forest any more. Mr. BOWDEN. Who has charge of the forest where you are now? Mr. MABRY. I think Mr. Scholefield. Mr. BOWDEN. What forest is that? Mr. MABRY. Coronado, in the Chiricahua Mountains. Mr. Krantz is one of my neighbors; I will leave it to him; he knows that it was not impossible for my cattle to get from my homestead to the forest; there is a trail there that my little girl can walk over in 40 minutes— a 3-year-old child. Senator ASHURST. Do you wish Mr. Krantz to make a statement here? Mr. MABRY. Yes. Mr. FRANK KRANTZ (of Douglas). Well, now, this all happened some time ago, and it has pretty well escaped my memory. Mr. Mabry, what is it you want? Mr. MABRY. I said it was possible for me to graze my cattle from my homestead on the forest. Mr. KRANTZ. It is. Mr. Mabry has a well at his place, permanent water, and it is just a half a mile from Mr. Mabry's well to the forest reserve land, and these cattle can use the feed on the forest from his water. Senator CAMERON. Is there a lane established? Mr. KRANTZ. No; there is no lane; Mr. Mabry put up one string of fence. There is no obstacle in the way; they can go all the way; as I recall, Mr. Mabry was intending to put a lane in so that the cattle could go back and forth and put up one string of fence, and when he was refused, of course, he didn't put up the other. Senator CAMERON. There was an open space so they could go from the forest to the watering place? Mr. KRANTZ. As far as I know; yes. Senator CAMERON. The application was for 25 head, was it not? Mr. MABRY. Yes, sir. Senator CAMERON. How many years ago was this? Mr. MABRY. About five years ago. Senator CAMERON. Have you ever obtained or had use of a permit on the forest reserve? Mr. MABRY. Yes, sir; at one time. Senator CAMERON. And do you know any good reason why you were refused permission to take your cattle to the forest reserve after you paid your fee and entered into a permit with the forest reserve? Mr. MABRY. None whatever. Mr. BOWDEN. How long have you lived on that homestead? Mr. MABRY. Twelve years. Mr. CAMERON. Have you a patent to that homestead? Mr. MABRY. Yes, sir. Senator ASHURST. Here is an incident that you paid the Government $25 for two years; paid $25 twice? Mr. MABRY. Yes, sir. Senator ASHURST. You have paid your Government $50 and have never been allowed to graze any cattle thereon; is that true? Mr. MABRY. Yes, sir. Senator CAMERON. Have you an application now for a permit, or if you have not, would you like to have one? Mr. MABRY. I would like to have one; I would like to have relief. Senator CAMERON. You haven't any application at the present time? Mr. MABRY. No, sir; they told me it wasn't necessary that I should make any other application. Senator CAMERON. They refused to recognize your application? Mr. MABRY. They refused to accept it. Senator CAMERON. Did your application interfere with any other application at the time? Mr. MABRY. Why, there were other parties who had an application on there. Senator CAMERON. At the time you applied? Mr. MABRY. But the application had run out at that time; it had expired. Senator CAMERON. And the permit was granted to you? Mr. MABRY. The permit was granted me from the land office at Albuquerque, N. Mex., by the supervisor, with the understanding that I was to graze my cattle on the forest and water on my own ranch. Senator CAMERON. Thank you, Mr. Mabry. STATEMENT OF MR. CARL P. SCHOLEFIELD, FOREST RANGER, CORONADO, CHIRICAHUA DIVISION Senator CAMERON. You heard the statement made by Mr. Mabry? Mr. SCHOLEFIELD. Yes, sir. Senator CAMERON. Will you give us some information as to why this permittee was never allowed to use his permit? Mr. SCHOLEFIELD. I am sorry; that was before my time, about two years before I was on that district. STATEMENT OF MR. B. A. PACKARD, OF DOUGLAS, ARIZ. Mr. PACKARD. Mr. Chairman, I have been requested to say something from the standpoint of the finances of these gentlemen who are interested in the forest reserve, which I have occasion or, rather, have an opportunity to know something about. I know that a large per cent of them and maybe as many as 90 per cent of these gentlemen who are occupying the forest reserve for cattle purposes are practically broke-I am free to say they are practically broke, and from this fact, from the fact of drought conditions, market conditions, etc., these people are in this condition. Now, to my mind the United States, the forestry, have nothing to sell at this time; they have nothing to sell, and there is no question in my mind but that the man who is occupying a portion of the forest reserve should be recognized and his permit extended without pay for quite a time. Six months is not long enough. Gentlemen, when anybody undertakes to tell you that in three weeks after a rain he will have grass he has got a better range than I have ever owned, and I have owned lots of them. To my mind, gentlemen, the department should be made to understand that it will take time for their property to ever get back to a point where they should receive any benefit from it. As I said before, they have got nothing to sell at this time, and it is going to be a long time before they have got anything to sell. That is my opinion. Senator CAMERON. If you should have a general rain, which is unlikely, during the months of June or July, it would not relieve the situation to any great extent for this year, would it? Mr. PACKARD. To a certain extent; yes, sir. Senator CAMERON. To such an extent that cattle in the poor condition that they are in to-day would barely get in shape to do anything with by early fall or by the time you would have to ship them? Mr. PACKARD. There is no question about that; the condition is such and has been such that certain characters of the grasses here are practically dead and the roots are even gone. That is my observation, and it will take time, years, for them to return. Weeds will come, but weeds are only momentary, you know. Mr. BOWDEN. Mr. Packard, to what area in Arizona do you apply your remarks? Mr. PACKARD. To all of Cochise County and other contiguous counties, Pima and Pinal particularly. Mr. BOWDEN. How long have you lived in this portion of the State. Mr. Packard? Mr. PACKARD. Forty-five years the 10th day of last May. Mr. BOWDEN. And during that time what has been your principal business? Mr. PACKARD. I have been in the cattle business most of the time. Senator ASHURST. Thank you very much, Mr. Packard. STATEMENT OF MR. J. B. CROWELL, OF DOUGLAS, ARIZ. Mr. CROWELL. I would like to confirm what Mr. Packard said and add a little to it. There has been some objection in the past to making gifts by the Government and by the State, and I think the time is here now when we should make the stockman a gift. We do not hesitate to contribute millions to Japan or any other foreign country in their difficulties, and it has come to a point where the cowmen, at least 90 per cent of them, are insolvent, and we should make a gift to them in the nature of free feed on these public domains for this year and next year. They are not deriving a bit of benefit from these |