profitable condition that I do not like to go to the expense of scripting that land, costing me about $25 an acre, but I would be very glad to go ahead with it and improve it and prepare for the use of it if I knew I was going to get it. A short time ago there was a report to the effect that the public domain would likely be taken over by the Forestry Department and administered under the forest regulations. Well, I immediately held up on any movement toward extending my range in the public domain for that reason. In that part of the country I consider that the per-head basis and the handling and counting of cattle and the supervision over the range by the Forestry Department, or any other set of men, would be ruinous to the cow man. It is not a forest matter. On the east side of my range in Pinal County a man handles his cattle successfully in altogether a different manner than I do mine. I am up in the foot of the mountains and he is off on the valley on the east. On the west side, too, men have gone broke trying out methods that they use in the mountains, so I don't believe that it would be within the range of possibilities to have a group of supervisors who would be conversant with all these different conditions as they arise on different tracts, different lands that lie in different locations and where conditions are widely different. I sold this range of mine and turned it over to a good cattleman and in a year he turned it back to me, but he started on altogether different plans than those which I had been successfully pursuing. At the end of the year he turned it back. He told the man in charge, he said, "I am going to run it differently." Well, he did, and at the end of the year the cattle were in a poorer condition than they had ever been at that time of the year. The neighbors advised him against the plan he was pursuing but he did it anyway. He was a good cattleman, but what you can do in one locality you can not do in another. There are three ranges there; one of them comprises about 100 sections. I am in the open range and there is probably well that country is 15 miles wide and 10 miles long, the open country; then comes this range to the west and it is absolutely necessary to handle the cattle in an altogether different manner because the feed is different. It is an Alfilaria country and the feed does not come at the same time and it is not all the same kind of feed. Conditions are entirely different. I think the leases should be made for a 10-year period and made on the per-acre plan and let the cattleman work out his own salvation in his own way, and if he fails he can not blame any bunch of supervisors or anybody else for interfering with his business. - Mr. BOWDEN. If you had a per-acre basis would you determine the value of the range on the per-head fee or on the per-acre fee? Mr. MEGUIRE. Why, I would determine it on the per-acre basis all the way through. Some of that land will not carry a cow, at the same time it would be necessary to include that in the lease. It wouldn't make any difference how you arrive at it, it would eventually work out on the per-head basis, because the range would only be good for the number of cattle it would carry. Mr. BOWDEN. In a 10-year lease would you favor the inclusion of a renewal provision? Mr. MEGUIRE. Most assuredly. Senator CAMERON. Thank you, Mr. Meguire. The next gentleman. STATEMENT OF MR. FRED BENNETT, OF TOMBSTONE, ARIZ. Mr. BENNETT. I just want to bear out my friend that was in the chair here about the per-acre proposition. I am in favor of that. I am on the forest, and I think a man ought to lease his country and then have control of it. I think he knows better what stuff it would carry and the conditions at all times. I don't think that all land could be assessed the same. They would have to put able men through the country and assess that land. Different land would have to be priced at different prices. That is about all I care to say, but if you will call Mr. Meddows Senator ASHURST. You have a permit for grazing livestock on the national forest? Mr. BENNETT. Yes, sir. Senator ASHURST. What forest? Mr. BENNETT. Coronado, in the Dragoon Mountains. Senator ASHURST. What have you to say as to the advisability of the national forest granting 10-year permits to permittees? Mr. BENNETT. I think it is a good idea. A man that makes improvements there, he feels like he was entitled to the privilege of renewal. Senator ASHURST. Isn't it a fact that if a sheepman or a cowman wanted to get credit at the bank if he held a 10-year permit it would increase his credit for the expense of his range? Mr. BENNETT. I think so. Senator ASHURST. You are a permittee on the Coronado National Forest? Mr. BENNETT. Yes, sir. Senator ASHURST. How long have you been a permittee on the Coronado National Forest? Mr. BENNETT. Eight years, I think. Senator ASHURST. And what are the grazing fees there per head per year? Mr. BENNETT. Well, a dollar a head. Senator ASHURST. A dollar a head for cattle. Now, when the gentleman spoke to us just a moment ago and said there was some discussion last year about a reduction in the fees there from $1 to 58 cents, did that reduction take place? Mr. BENNETT. Well, they remitted to us. Senator ASHURST. They did remit? Mr. BENNETT. Yes, sir. Senator CAMERON. Mr. Bennett, that remittance was due to the fact that there was a resolution passed by Congress remitting the fees from January 1, 1925, to June 30, 1925, wasn't it? Mr. BENNETT. Yes, sir. Senator CAMERON. There has been no fees remitted by the forest reserve other than under that resolution? Mr. BENNETT. That is all that I am advised of. Senator ASHURST. Even at the figure of 58 cents per head per year you find it a high rate? Mr. BENNETT. Of course, you gentlemen are aware that everybody in the cattle business here is broke and anything you charge them at all is excessive, because they are broke. Senator ASHURST. Then the cancellation of the fees for the next two years would be of some benefit? Mr. BENNETT. It would be a life saver. Senator ASHURST. And a permanent reduction would also give the stock raiser a chance to recoup? Mr. BENNETT. Yes, sir. Senator ASHURST. Then you go on record in favor of the remission or cancellation of the fees for the next two or three years and a reduction after that? Mr. BENNETT. Yes, sir; but I want to say that I have no kick with the forest. I have no fault with them. Senator ASHURST. You have always paid what they demanded? Mr. BENNETT. I have, sir. Been glad to do it, because I needed the country. Senator ASHURST. But the industry would have been very much promoted if they had not charged such high fees? Mr. BENNETT. Yes. Senator CAMERON. Mr. Bennett, how long have you been paying a dollar-this dollar fe?? Mr. BENNETT. Well, I think probably two years; I won't be sure; it fluctuates a little. Senator CAMERON. What was your charge at the time you first leased from the forest reserve, per head? Mr. BENNETT. I think about 8 cents. Senator CAMERON. You say the increase came about two years ago? Mr. BENNETT. The raise was about two years ago; some of these forest men here are more familiar with it than I am. Senator CAMERON. We will get their statement later. Mr. BOWDEN. Have they put any 10-year permits on your forest Senator CAMERON. Has there been any 10-year permits issued yet so far as you know? Mr. BENNETT. Well, I don't know, but I think some of them have procured 10-year permits; at least they are drawn up in such a way that they can keep them 10 years. Mr. BOWDEN. The committee has been considering the question of establishing some kind of a board or commission made up of representatives of the livestock industry and officers of the department to review appeals from decisions of the Forest Service relative to the cancellation of permits or allotments of range, etc., and the committee is very anxious to get an expression of opinion of the permittees as to the need or advisability of such a board or commission. Mr. BENNETT. Well, I expect that is a good thing to have a board, because where you are congested that will always come up. Some man will want something the other man has and those questions will come up, and if you have a board to look it over they can adjust it as a rule. Mr. BOWDEN. The board only has to be the judge and not the prosecutor in a case like that? Mr. BENNETT. The cowman you will always find-the most of them want to do the right thing, if you have got somebody to reason with him. You get them together and rub off the ground and get a stick and you can satisfy them in 20 minutes. That is why I think a board would be a good thing. Senator ASHURST. Well, the cowman, if left to himself and given the opportunity to expand without so much governmental interference from Washington, would be much better off, wouldn't he? Mr. BENNETT. Yes; he don't like to have what we call a 66 dude " from Boston come out and tell him how to run his business. Senator ASHURST. Precisely. Thank you, Mr. Bennett. STATEMENT OF MR. J. H. SNYDER, OF PEARCE, ARIZ. Senator ASHURST. Are you a permittee on the national forest? Mr. SNYDER. Yes; I am with the company; I suppose it is the same thing. Senator ASHURST. Now, on what national forest are you a permittee is the company a permittee? Mr. SNYDER. The Coronado National Forest. Senator ASHURST. That is the same forest Mr. Bennett spoke of a minute ago? Mr. SNYDER. Yes, sir. Senator ASHURST. Now, what fees are you or your company paying. Mr. Snyder? Mr. SNYDER. A dollar per head. Senator ASHURST. A dollar per head per year? Mr. SNYDER. Yes, sir. Senator ASHURST. Now, what have you to say about the reduction of grazing fees, the resolution passed by Congress, for the next two or three years? Mr. SNYDER. It seems to me it is absolutely necessary if you want to save the business. Senator ASHURST. You are speaking as a practical stockman? Mr. SNYDER. Yes, sir. Senator ASHURST. And it is your opinion that if the cattle business is to survive there must be a cancellation or a postponement of the grazing fees? Mr. SNYDER. For the present it would be a great help. Senator CAMERON. How long have you been on this forest reserve? Mr. SNYDER. I think we fenced our ground just as soon as it was organized; in 1906. Senator CAMERON. You have been on there a long time? Mr. SNYDER. Yes, sir. Senator CAMERON. What did you pay when you first went on; what was the fee charged? Mr. SNYDER. I don't know that I could give that, because I wasn't with the company at that time, but it was possibly 30 or 40 cents. You can get that from the forest reserve-maybe 25 cents-and then went to 60 and then up to a dollar. Senator CAMERON. How many cattle, approximately, have you on the reserve at the present time? Mr. SNYDER. We have a permit for 175 head, but we started in with about 400 head, and they have been cutting us down, allowing others to come in on ground we have fenced, you know, and we are cut down to a small allotment. Senator CAMERON. In other words, if you are cut much further you won't be in the business? Mr. SNYDER. No. Senator ASHURST. You say you have been cut to 175 head? Senator ASHURST. Now, isn't it a fact that the overhead in running 175 cattle is almost the same as it is in running 300 head of cattle? Mr. SNYDER. Usually. Senator ASHURST. About the same? Mr. SNYDER. Yes. In this connection I might state we fenced off the total ground under the permit, you know, and this fence belongs to us, while these other permittees are allowed to come in, and they have worked out preferences for the use of these fences and our water-didn't cost them anything; they worked out preferences and then they got the allotment. Senator CAMERON. You have had to bear the expense of furnishing water and fence? Mr. SNYDER. Yes. Now, one of them has taken the fence away and they are of no use to us. Senator ASHURST. Do you wish to make any comments as to the plan of leasing the Government domain that is now unreserved? Mr. SNYDER. I think it ought to be put in shape, so we could lease it or buy it and get it under our control. Senator CAMERON. From your past experience you feel that there is no more land that would be profitable for homesteaders to enter upon? Mr. SNYDER. Very little that I know of. Of course, in my section there are only little isolated tracts; don't amount to a great deal. Senator CAMERON. Then you think if a general leasing law was enacted by Congress it would not materially conflict with the homesteaders, the present homestead laws? Mr. SNYDER. No: I don't think so. They might have some land lying adjoining it, and using our water, make a little use of it, and probably get a little sore if it was taken away. Mr. BOWDEN. On your forest is there included therein very many acres of land that are not valuable for commercial timber? Mr. SNYDER. There is very little, if any, timber. Mr. BOWDEN. Would you say the larger portion of it is chiefly valuable for grazing land? Mr. SNYDER. Yes, sir. Mr. BOWDEN. On your forest there, would you favor a system whereby you could lease the land and have your own range instead of having the system of community pastures? Mr. SNYDER. I would prefer having the leasing system and having control of my own land. Senator CAMERON. Are there any watersheds protected by the Coronado National Forest Reserve; that is, the flood water that pro tects the streams? Mr. SNYDER. No; there are no streams on this. |