STATEMENT OF MR. JOHN P. CULL, STATE SENATOR, DOUGLAS, ARIZ. JOHN P. CULL. As one of the committee, I will just read you the report we have written up: JUNE 3, 1925. Senatorial Subcommittee on Public Lands and Surveys, Douglas, Ariz. GENTLEMEN: At a meeting of the cattle growers of Cochise County and vicinity, the same being held at the offices of the chamber of commerce and mines, Saturday, May 23, 1925, Mr. B. A. Packard, chairman, appointed a committee to consult with the various cattle growers of this district who were not present at the above-mentioned meeting and endeavor to ascertain their feelings toward the present regulations imposed by the Department of Agriculture and the Department of the Interior upon the cattle growers relative to the grazing of cattle on the forest-reserve lands and public domain. Pursuant to these instructions this committee has interviewed a number of our most prominent cattlemen and have also received written statements from several. We are very glad to report that according to the sentiments expressed by those heard from all seem to be very well satisfied with the manner in which the affairs of both departments are conducted and wish to thank those who have been instrumental in making the present satisfactory arrangements relative to the free grazing permit. It is a well-known fact that the conditions which brought about the above emergency measure still exist. Therefore this committee has been instructed to ask and recommend to your honorable body to continue the free grazing permit until January 1, 1926. We are also instructed to suggest to you that drift fences on forest reserve lands be constructed and maintained by the Government instead of by the individual as under the present regulations.' Inasmuch as these fences serve the particular tract of land under lease to the party, only during the time that the party's cattle have the right of the range, and as changes are constantly taking place we feel that such an arrangement is only fair and just. We feel that it would be a grave mistake to change from the present system of the administration of forest reserve lands and the public domain. We fail to see where any advantage might be gained by placing both under the supervision of either the Department of the Interior or the Department of Agriculture. Several of our cattle growers have intimated to us their intention of talking with your committee and stating to you their different ideas. We respectfully ask that these gentlemen be heard. JOHN P. CULL, Chairman. J. N. HUNSAKER. SUPPLEMENT May we also suggest that the beginning of the fiscal year grazing period be changed from April 1, as it now stands, to July 1. The reasons for this suggested change will be presented by interested cattlemen. JOHN P. CULL, Chairman. We have a few letters here from different ones who were not able to attend our meeting. Senator CAMERON. Read them, please. (Whereupon Mr. Cull read the following letters:) CROSS I QUARTER CIRCLE RANCH, Tombstone, Ariz., May 28, 1925. Mr. L. A. HERRING, Douglas Chamber of Commerce, Douglas, Ariz. DEAR SIR: Relative to the meeting on May 23, sorry we could not attend. But range and water conditions need our attention constantly at present. Although we are not at all interested in forest reserve matters, will make an effort to be in Douglas at your meeting June 4. In State land laws we are interested, and think something should have been done to help the cowman meet his State land dues, as these lands have practically been of no use the past year, and perhaps not for another year. Most cattlemen have shipped to other pastures and paying well for them. We appreciate this matter is past consideration, but as our range is nearly all State land, necessarily our interests are all in that direction. However, we want to do anything in our power to encourage the cowman and bring back better prices. Yours very truly, Mr. L. A. HERRING, KENDALL BROS. THE RIGGS BANK, Willcox, Ariz., May 30, 1925. Secretary Douglas Chamber of Commerce, Douglas, Ariz. MY DEAR MR. HERRING: Your good letter of the 25th instant addressed to the Riggs Cattle Co. was gladly received in due time. Replying will say that I have had several letters and bulletins from Senator Ralph Cameron in reference to the work they are doing for us in the matter of grazing on the public lands, forest reserves, etc., and as per your suggestion I will here in a brief way outline as best I can what I think would be beneficial to us in this matter. First, in the matter of the public domain, I will say that the tentative draft of a bill which is printed on pages 7 and 8 in the hearings of the Subcommittee on Public Lands and Surveys, United States Senate, Sixty-ninth Congress, first session, Senate Resolution 347, part 1, is as good or better than anything that I have seen on the handling of the unreserved public domain that is valuable only for grazing. In the matter of the forest reserve will say that I honestly hope that Congress will see fit to authorize the remission of grazing fees for the remainder of 1925. With conditions as they are in the Southwest, and if we don't get rain in July, the worst is yet to come. I have no suggestions to make in the matter of the rules and regulations as prescribed by the Forest Department, with the exception that I feel that the rates should be materially reduced, at least as long as the times with the cattle business remain in its present condition. I am sorry that it will not be possible to be in Douglas and meet with Senator Ralph Cameron's committee. I feel that this committee is on a good errand, and you are at liberty to say to Senator Cameron that if there is anything that I can do in the matter of helping them in their work here in Arizona, I will be glad to have him write me, and I will be pleased to help in any way that I can. Thanking you very much for your kindness of writing me in this matter, and with all good wishes to you, I am, Yours very truly, WILLIAM M. RIGGS, President. That is the extent of what I have to say. Senator CAMERON. Haven't you something further to say? Mr. CULL. No. Senator CAMERON. Now, gentlemen, don't be backward; come forward, whoever has a statement to make. STATEMENT OF MR. FRANK B. MOORE, OF DOUGLAS, ARIZ. Mr. MOORE. I used to represent the State association, and our president wrote me and asked me to be here. He wanted to be here very much himself, but said it would be impossible, and he would meet you in Tucson, he hoped. I am not directly interested in the forest reserve. We have gone through the most critical period that any of us ever went through. Years ago we had hard times in the way of range conditions and prices, but it was costing us practically nothing in those days to get along. Nowadays we have practically got to do cash business, and 43213-25-PT 4- -2 our business has been in the most deplorable condition that I have ever known it. It has been a great help to the cattlemen to be relieved for the first half of this year in paying our forest fees, and if it could be extended it would be a further help, because even if we get rain in July it is only going to partly relieve the present condition, because it is about like the man that has been about twothirds drowned, he has got to be rolled over a barrel for a while before he can breathe right. It is going to take two or three years to struggle out of the present troubles. I haven't any suggestions to make in regard to the forest, because there are others here that are permittees and know a great deal more about that than I do. The forest officials have been criticized, but everything is criticized, so I suppose there are two sides to it. I think if we could learn to carry less cattle on our ranges, we could be better able to struggle through these hard times. The trouble they have out in the forests is on the matter of reducing the amount of cattle they are carrying on the forests, and there is some foundation for that, I believe. There are a good many millions of acres of land in this State used by the cattle and sheep men. We are leasing millions of acres, but there is no relief afforded us. Our first leases that we have taken out under the State come due July 1 and we are getting no relief whatever. I believe there was a bill before the legislature providing for relief. I don't remember whether the bill passed or not; do you, Mr. Packard? Mr. B. A. PACKARD (of Douglas, Ariz.). I don't think it passed. Mr. MOORE. But in the way of leasing fractions. We have got to pay up to 25 cents an acre on fractions-on a 40-acre fraction-and it is excessive on fractions short of a section. Senator CAMERON. That is on State land? Mr. MOORE. That is on State land. Take my own little affairs. I had a tract of land covered by three leases. It is cut up into 20 leases now under the regulations of the Land Department and I think it costs something like $10 an application for them to be put through and with the small leasing it is going to amount to something like several hundred dollars. Of course, that is my affair, but still you gentlemen are Arizonians as well as Senators and you may be able to get it through to the Land Department. I can not think of anything else, but I will be glad to answer any questions. Senator CAMERON. You spoke about the reduction by the forest reserve of the number of cattle and sheep grazing on the forests. Don't you think that natural causes will bring about such reductions? Mr. MOORE. I think in a great many places it will. Mr. MOORE. It will likely do it, but it has been impossible for them to move them. There is no place to move them to. There is no market, and it has been impossible for a great many men on the forest to relieve their range conditions. Senator CAMERON. You could not move them now if you wanted to? Mr. MOORE. No; a great many could not. Some of them are just dumping them on the market. Senator CAMERON. It looks like nature is going to do the rest unless they get rain pretty soon? Mr. MOORE. I think so. Senator ASHURST. Mr. Moore, are you of the opinion that the grazing fees on the national forests ought to be reduced? Mr. MOORE. Why that is the opinion of my friends, those better advised than I am through their own personal experience. They at least should be held down. Senator ASHURST. What have you to say as to the grazing fee for the present year and next year, owing to the extreme drought and depreciation in the market? Mr. MOORE. I think they should be remitted this year at least. Senator ASHURST. Now, assuming that you should have a rain the middle of this month, would it not be six weeks before you would get any grass? Mr. MOORE. The grass comes very quickly here. We would have feed in a couple of weeks, but that only starts the relief; that don't put people out of their suffering so much. Everybody has been compelled to lease pastures wherever they could get them and they have moved the cattle out of the State, and there has been a great many hundreds of tons of high-priced hay fed. Senator ASHURST. Then if you should have rain, you still believe that the grazing fees should be canceled for this year and next? Mr. MOORE. Yes. Senator ASHURST. As to these fees and commissioner's charges for leasing land from the State, why do not the cattlemen of this country petition the land board and send delegations to the land board asking for relief? Mr. MOORE. It might be done, Senator. We tried to get a little bill through the last legislature getting all of these fractions on the 3 per cent minimum basis that they used to give on full sections, but it got sidetracked with a lot of other bills, and never got out at all. Senator ASHURST. There is a vast deal of public opinion throughout the West to the effect that the grazing lands ought to be put under some sort of Government control. Mr. MOORE. I would like to comment on that, being interested as I am with the State association. There are a great many of my friends-it means the life of their business Senator ASHURST. They are in favor of Government control? Mr. MOORE. Yes; everyone I have talked with is in favor of Government control, so it could be leased the same as State lands. You take people who improve their range, there is no certainty of staying there. If you had feed, somebody else would come in and eat it out on you, wandering bunches of sheep on the desert. I think it should be worked out in some way. It should be under private control in some way, so people could fence it and use it legitimately and intelligently. Senator ASHURST. You have had considerable experience and are a practical cattleman, do you think the leasing of the public domain could be carried on and let bona fide, good faith, homesteaders take homesteads here and there, if they could find them? Mr. MOORE. I don't see why not. The homestead land is gone and has been gone. There is no place left, I don't suppose, in the nited States, speaking broadly that there is any available home stead land. Senator ASHURST. Then that would be an additional argument in favor of leasing the Government domain for sheep and cattle. raising? Mr. MOORE. Absolutely. Senator ASHURST. Is it your opinion, if a man had a lease for a particular area for sheep or cattle, that that would promote his credit with the banks? Mr. MOORE. It would, absolutely. It is like a man in the merchandise business with a dry-goods box out on a vacant lot; he would not have the standing of a man in a building somewhere. Senator ASHURST. And you think the range could be divided between the sheep and cattle men without any serious friction? Mr. MOORE. It has worked with the State land. Mr. BOWDEN. Mr. Moore, are you grazing any livestock at the present time? Mr. MOORE. I am. Mr. BOWDEN. Where is your range? Mr. MOORE. It is about 40 miles north from here on the foothills of the Chiracahua Mountains and Swisshelm Mountains. Mr. BOWDEN. What kind of stock are you grazing? Mr. MOORE. I am raising cattle. Mr. BOWDEN. Do you graze any stock on any Federal land? Mr. BOWDEN. Have you during the past 10 years grazed any stock in the forests or on the public domain? Mr. MOORE. No; not in the last 10 years. I think it has gone into private hands through lease and patented lands. Mr. BOWDEN. Are you familiar with the location of the unreserved public lands in this part of the State? Mr. MOORE. Well, there is practically no public domain in this county, but I am familiar with it through the State; yes, through my trips one place and another. Mr. BOWDEN. One of the questions confronting the committee is whether this public land is in large enough blocks so that it could be placed in grazing districts; you see, if it is in large blocks it would be more suitable for leasing, but if it is in isolated tracts it might be more suitable for sale. Are you acquainted with the public lands in this part of the State, and do you know whether they are in blocks or isolated tracts? Of Mr. MOORE. Going west from here, west and north, you will find a great deal of land that is still public domain in large blocks. course there may be little settlements here and there, but that would not interfere with the leasing of the land. Mr. BOWDEN. Government statistics show that there are left in this State approximately 12,000,000 acres of unreserved public land. From your knowledge of the public lands could you give any percentage of the lands that are in fairly large blocks? Mr. MOORE. You mean the location of it? Mr. BOWDEN. Yes. Mr. MOORE. Well, not definitely, I could not. I would say in Pima County you will find vast tracts of land that are public domain. I don't think there is so much State land there. Mr. BOWDEN. But in this part of the State it is more in isolated pieces, is that true? |