STATEMENT OF HON. EDGAR B. MERITT, ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER OF INDIAN AFFAIRS, DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR, WASHINGTON, D. C.

Senator CAMERON. You may proceed with your statement, Mr. Meritt.

Assistant Commissioner MERITT. First, I will mark this data "Exhibit A" and I will say that this explains the expenditures by the Indian Service in the States of Arizona, California, Colorado, Idaho, Montana, Nevada, New Mexico, Oregon, Washington, and Wyoming for the fiscal years 1920 to 1924, inclusive. This statement gives you detailed information including the grand totals.

We next have a paper that I will mark "Exhibit B," which consists of a statement showing the income from Indian reservations in Arizona, California, Colorado, Idaho, Montana, Nevada, New Mexico, Oregon, Washington, and Wyoming for the fiscal years 1920 to 1924, both inclusive. It also contains a recapitulation by States covering the complete statement.

We next have a paper that I will mark "Exhibit C," which contains tables showing the positions and salaries at the various Indian reservations in the States of Arizona, California, Colorado, Idaho, Montana, Nevada, New Mexico, Oregon, Washington, and Wyoming for the fiscal years 1920 to 1924, inclusive.

Next is a paper which I will mark "Exhibit D," which shows the Indian reservations in the United States as called for in your letter under date of May 4, 1925. It shows the locations of the reservations, the original area as well as the present area, the dates of estabishment of the reservations, and the authority under which established. That is, it shows whether the reservation was created by Executive order, a treaty reservation, or is a reservation created by

act of Congress.

The next paper I will mark "Exhibit E." This statement shows the Indian reservations in the States of Arizona, California, Colorado, Idaho, Montana, Nevada, New Mexico, Oregon, Washington, and Wyoming; the number of Indians for the years 1920 to 1924, both inclusive; the cattle, sheep, and horses grazed on the various reservations, where we have outside cattle on reservations. It also shows the number of permittees, where there are permittees; the methods of bidding and number of leases. It contains also a statement as to the natural resources in the different States as to timber, irrigation, and mining, and the methods of purchasing goods and supplies in the Indian Service, and the methods of leasing on the Indian reservations, in compliance with request filed in your letter

of May 4, 1925.

Senator CAMERON. Mr. Meritt, that covers oil and mineral leases

as well, does it?

Assistant Commissioner MERITT. Yes, sir. We have here next a paper that I will mark "Exhibit F." This is a diagram showing the organization of an Indian reservation. It represents no particular reservation, but is gotten up to show every position in the Indian Service. We do not have all these positions on any one Indian reserFation, but it is a chart to show you the duties of every position in

the Indian Service and where that position would fall in our organization. We have a note here to this effect:

It

This chart shows every existing position on any Indian reservation. represents the composite organization. No one reservation carries all these employees, but only such as the conditions of each reservation require.

Unless that is fully understood, this chart would be misleading, because it would convey the impression that we have all of our Indian reservations organized in this detailed manner. The fact is that we have simply gotten up one chart to show every possible position in the Indian Service, and we have no reservation that has all these positions.

Next we have a batch of pamphlets, which I will mark "Exhibit G." These are the regulations in the Indian Service, covering every branch of the service. There are forestry regulations, oil regulations, leasing regulations, regulations of the Five Civilized Tribes. The leasing regulations consist of leasing for various minerals. We also have allotment regulations, school regulations, removal of restriction regulations, the general regulations of the Indian Office, and the individual Indian money regulations. In short, we here furnish you with a copy of every regulation that we have in the Indian Service. Now, Mr. Chairman, I believe that completes the data that you requested.

Commissioner BURKE. I think you better put this other in.

Assistant Commissioner MERITT. Mr. Chairman, here is something that you did not request and which I will mark "Exhibit H," as I think it would be very convenient for your committee to have it. It is a map showing the States west of the Mississippi River, and also the Indian reservations, which are indicated on the map in yellow. It shows every Indian reservation and the location of Indian schools, etc. The legend on the map will indicate what each thing

means.

Senator CAMERON. That covers every Indian reservation in the United States?

Assistant Commissioner MERITT. No, sir; this is west of the Mississippi River. But there are only a few Indian reservations east of the Mississippi River.

Now, gentlemen, if there is any further information that the committee wants just let us know, and we will be glad to furnish it.

Commissioner BURKE. I was going to suggest that after the subcommittee has examined the data we are here submitting it may be that you will wish to interrogate us as to some portions of it, and that at some other time you will wish us to be here. In that event we will be very willing to respond. I want the subcommittee to understand that we will cooperate fully with you in your efforts, and that we will try to give you the benefit of any data or information along our line that you may seek.

Assistant Commissioner MERITT. I may also add that the table showing the income on the various Indian reservations shows a decline on some of the reservations. That is accounted for by reason of the fact that we are not getting as much for grazing at this time as we got a few years ago. During the war we got as high as $4 and $5 per head for cattle on some of our reservations. The average now is about $1.75 per head for cattle in the southwestern section and about

on

$2.50 per head for cattle in the Northwest. There is some reduction sheep. We now get between 35 cents and 40 cents per head on sheep, whereas formerly we got a good deal more than that.

There is one notable exception to that condition and that is on the Yakima Reservation, where we are getting $1.75 per head for sheep, and that is for the reason that we have on that reservation not only summer grazing but an area for sheep for winter grazing. It is the highest price that we are receiving anywhere in the country, and I imagine that nobody else is getting a higher price than that for grazing sheep.

Mr. BOWDEN. Mr. Meritt, what is the basis of your grazing policy, per head of livestock or per acre grazed?

Assistant Commissioner MERITT. Usually per head.

Mr. BOWDEN. You have community pastures instead of individual

pastures

Assistant Commissioner MERITT. It is usually based on per head, but we do not permit overgrazing on a reservation. We limit it to the amount of acreage that we have for grazing purposes.

Mr. BOWDEN. Have you tried out granting permits to graze on the basis of per acre instead of per head?

Assistant Commissioner MERITT. We have on some reservations in the past, but we find that this is the most practical way to lease the reservations.

Mr. BOWDEN. The reservations then become community pastures in the sense that there are several permittees grazing their cattle on the same land, is that it?

Assistant Commissioner MERITT. No; we will permit a man to have a certain portion of a reservation for his grazing.

Mr. BOWDEN. And he runs his livestock exclusively on that portion?

Assistant Commissioner MERITT. He runs his livestock in there. Of course, there may be some Indian stock in there, but we permit him to have a certain area of the reservation.

Mr. BOWDEN. But you charge him on a per-head basis instead of a per-acre basis?

Assistant Commissioner MERITT. Yes, sir.

Senator CAMERON. Do you have any trouble leasing these lands to stockmen at the prices now charged?

Assistant Commissioner MERITT. No, sir; we are able to lease all our surplus lands. Of course, we go on the theory that the reservations are for the benefit of the Indians, and wherever Indians have stock to utilize the area of the reservation we do not permit outside eattle. But where we have surplus grazing we are glad to supplement the income to the Indians by that method.

Commissioner BURKE. We have a condition now that complicates leasing to quite an extent, and that is that reservations have been allotted and a permittee makes a lease of such lands as may not be allotted, and then as to arranging with each allottee within the area for the use of that particular lease; and if the Indian does not want to have it leased it may be fenced out. You can see what that means. How many leases of that kind have we? Several thousand? Assistant Commissioner MERITT. Yes, sir.

Senator CAMERON. In the leasing of these lands, does the lessor have to do his own fencing?

Assistant Commissioner MERITT. That is a part of the lease. But a great many of these areas have been leased, say, 10 years ago, and they were fenced, and if the party leasing does nor release it, he is to leave the fence, and then, of course, it is leased to the next party with the right to use that fence. But it may require considerable repairs, which he has to make.

Mr. BOWDEN. Are the users of grazing lands in Indian reservations, other than Indians, lessees or permittees?

Assistant Commissioner MERITT. Both; but usually permittees. I think we have more permittees than lessees.

Mr. BOWDEN. What are the legal rights of a permittee?
Assistant Commissioner MERITT. The same as a lessee.

is nothing more nor less than a lease.

Mr. BOWDEN Do you say it is less than a lease?

A permit

Assistant Commissioner MERITT. No; it is nothing more nor less than a lease. It is simply a contract between the Government and the user of the land.

Mr. BOWDEN. Do you enter into a formal document in which the Government is a party and to which the permittee is a party? Assistant Commissioner MERITT. Yes, sir.

Mr. BOWDEN. What is the length of life of the average permit that is granted?

Assistant Commissioner MERITT. That depends on the reservation. Sometimes it is for one year and sometimes it is for four or five years. Mr. BOWDEN. Do you have any for a longer period than four or five years?

Assistant Commissioner MERITT. Not that I can recall.

Mr. BOWDEN. In your opinion would it be advantageous to the private user if he had a longer tenure than four or five years?

Assistant Commissioner MERITT. It has been our practice not to give leases for a longer period than five years, for the reason that conditions change on reservations. The Indians may develop up tc the point where they want to utilize more land, and we do not like to tie up a reservation for an indefinite period of time.

Mr. BOWDEN. What procedure is followed in the letting of these permits and leases?

Assistant Commissioner MERITT. Usually by competitive bidding We call for bids on a certain area.

Senator CAMERON. Mr. Commissioner and Mr. Assistant Com missioner, I do not think there is anything further that we desire t ask you to-day.

Commissioner BURKE. Let us know when you want us.

Senator CAMERON. If we want you at any time we will call you back.

Commissioner BURKE. Very well.

Senator CAMERON. The committee should now decide what exhibit of those offered should be incorporated in the record.

(Thereupon, on motion, it was ordered that Exhibits A, B, C, E F, and G be incorporated in the record, which are as follows:)

Office and schoolroom supplies.

43213-257-PT 3--2

COLORADO RIVER AGENCY, ARIZ.