Mr. EAKIN. I looked that over very carefully myself last year during the snow period, and, with the exception of the first few switchbacks, as I stated, there is no snow remains there after the sun comes out, because it is in the sun. It has a real southern exposure.

Senator ASHURST. Before you leave the subject of the recommendation or report, I would like to settle a little matter. You say you recommended the building of this new trail?

Mr. EAKIN. Well, this project had been firmly established by correspondences back and forth long before I came here.

Senator CAMERON. Correspondence with who?

Mr. EAKIN. With the Park Service superintendent and the Washington office and there were two or three routes-alternate routes selected when I came here and so it was, at least, as far as consideration is concerned an established project. It was nothing new with me.

Senator ASHURST. Were you called upon to make any recommen dation?

Mr. EAKIN. Yes, sir.

Senator ASHURST. Have you that letter?

Mr. EAKIN. I think I can get that.

Mr. BOWDEN. Will you also bring the files that you have on the location of this new trail. We would like to go through that file. Mr. EAKIN. However, in affairs like that, these questions of policy, they are determined in the Washington office.

Mr. BOWDEN. The Secretary of the Interior offered to buy the Bright Angel Trail, didn't he?

Mr. EAKIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BOWDEN. Apparently, then, he would prefer to have the Bright Angel than the new trail?

Mr. EAKIN. I am not in position to say just how he looks at the

matter.

Senator ASHURST. You spoke a moment ago about this Bright Angel Trail having some snow on it some months in the year. Now, the Secretary of the Interior was willing to pay $100,000 for it even with the snow on it, wasn't he?

Mr. EAKIN. Yes, sir.

Senator ASHURST. It couldn't have been such a poor trail when they would offer to pay $100,000?

Mr. EAKIN. I haven't said, sir, it was a poor trail.

Senator ASHURST. Then, you think it is a good trail?

Mr. EAKIN. I don't think it compares with our new trail in grade, construction, safety, or anything else, but it is a good trail-a good mountain trail.

Senator ASHURST. Then, you would say that the Bright Angel Trail is a good trail?

Mr. EAKIN. It is a good mountain trail. I should say that unhesitatingly.

Mr. BOWDEN. Now, the formation at the top of the new trail is decomposed limestone, isn't it?

Mr. EAKIN. On the new trail? It is not very much decomposed. Really, we had to drill it out there. It is very hard.

Mr. BOWDEN. It looks to me very much like decomposed limestone. Are you sure of that now?

Mr. EAKIN. Will you check me on that statement, Tillotson?

Mr. TILLOTSON. It is not decomposed, I should say-not disintegrated. It is limestone-what we call

Mr. BOWDEN. It is decomposed, is it not?

Mr. EAKIN. Oh, this has exposed it.

Mr. BOWDEN. Putting through your blast charges, you have so broken the rock that it is all cracked, isn't it?

Mr. EAKIN. I believe not. I believe it is shot to a solid bed. Mr. BOWDEN. Do you expect to get slides when you first go in there?

Mr. EAKIN. Some slides will come in until the thing settles.

Mr. BOWDEN. What have you to say as regards safety provisions of that trail and the possible drop in the event that anyone would go over the trail?

Mr. EAKIN. Go over the trail?

Mr. BOWDEN. Fall off of the trail-slip off of the trail?

Mr. EAKIN. Well, there is a guard rail all along.

Mr. BOWDEN. You mean a few little rocks?

Mr. EAKIN. Yes.

Mr. BOWDEN. Of course, that makes it bad for a burro, because, if he slips off and can't get back on again, he is gone. I mean the full extent of the drop.

Mr. EAKIN. There can be no trail made absolutely safe.

Mr. BOWDEN. Now, have you figured your trail from the safety standpoint so you can tell in the event that a person slipped off of the trail at any place how far he would fall before he could stop? Mr. EAKIN. No, sir; we are not figuring on anyone slipping off. Mr. BOWDEN. If the committee please, I would suggest an investigation of this new trail. I investigated it this morning and the drop is very extensive. You go down one place on that trail where, if you went over the edge, you would go 1,900 feet before stopping. I rolled rocks down there for the purpose of trying it out.

Senator ASHURST. How many men have you in the National Park Service here, Mr. Eakin?

Mr. EAKIN. In our

Senator ASHURST. Yes

Mr. EAKIN. Permanent force?

Senator ASHURST. Permanent force; yes.

Mr. EAKIN. I think about 15 only.

Senator ASHURST. Well, now, the names are what, Mr. Eakin?

Mr. EAKIN. Well

Senator ASHURST. Mr. Bolton?

Mr. EAKIN. Yes, sir.

Senator ASHURST. Mr.Douglas?

Mr. EAKIN. Yes, sir.

Senator ASHURST. Mr. Harrison?

Mr. EAKIN. Yes, sir.

Senator ASHURST. Mr. Scoyen?

Mr. EAKIN. Mr. Scoyen.

Senator ASHURST. Now, will you name those that are permanently employed here?

Mr. EAKIN. Yes, sir; Mr. Storey. He is the warehouseman.

Senator ASHURST. Who else?

Mr. EAKIN. Mr. Tillotson, who is park engineer. Then, I believe, eight permanent rangers.

Senator ASHURST. Eight rangers?

Mr. EAKIN. Yes, sir.

Senator ASHURST. Now, how long had you lived in Arizona before you became national park superintendent?

Mr. EAKIN. I was a resident of Montana at the time I was appointed. I was transferred from Glacier National Park.

Senator ASHURST. How long had Mr. Boltan lived in Arizona before he took up his duties out here?

Mr. EAKIN. I think he was sent directly out from the East. Senator ASHURST. How long had Mr. Douglas lived in Arizona before he was employed here?

Mr. EAKIN. Some time, I think. Can you answer that question? Mr. Douglas. About two years.

Senator ASHURST. What was his occupation before he came here? Mr. DOUGLAS. I was working at the American Smelting & Refining Co.'s smelter at Hayden.

Senator ASHURST. And Mr. Harrison, where did he live before he came out here?

Mr. EAKIN. I think he came directly from the East.
Senator ASHURST. What part of the East?

Mr. EAKIN. New Jersey.

Senator ASHURST. And Mr. Scoyen?

Mr. EAKIN. He was transferred from the Yellowstone National Park.

Senator ASHURST. And go right down the line. We haven't found one from Arizona.

Mr. EAKIN. You will find several among the rangers.

Senator ASHURST. But the responsible officials were imported in? Mr. EAKIN. Well, so it appears; yes, sir.

Senator ASHURST. All except Mr. Douglas?

Mr. EAKIN. Yes.

Senator ASHURST. Had you ever been in Arizona before you came here as park superintendent?

Mr. EAKIN. I had merely crossed on the train.

Senator ASHURST. Just saw it from a Pullman car?

Mr. EAKIN. Yes.

Senator ASHURST. Now, you were quite active in urging the purchase of this trail, were you not? In other words, you wanted the county to sell the trail?

Mr. EAKIN. Well, I was so instructed. I knew it was the policy of the Park Service at Washington to purchase the trail.

Senator ASHURST. You had been instructed to use all practical means?

Mr. EAKIN. That is, I used what little ability I had in trying to consumate the trail as instructed by my superior officer.

Senator ASHURST. My criticism is not directed at you. It is directed at the Secretary of the Interior and at the Director of the National Park Service, so I don't want you to feel any irritation. So you were somewhat disappointed when the people of the county voted against the purchase of the trail?

Mr. EAKIN. To tell you the truth, I was not, personally.
Senator ASHURST. Could you vote?

Mr. EAKIN. No, sir, I had not been in Arizona long enough to acquire a legal residence.

Senator ASHURST. Well, the Department of the Interior and the Director of the National Park Service especially were quite anxious that this trail should be acquired by the Federal Government and that the county should be eliminated, were they not?

Mr. EAKIN. Yes, sir, they were anxious to acquire the trail. Senator ASHURST. Why were they anxious to eliminate the county?

Mr. EAKIN. I think, in the first place, that they did not like the idea of a toll being collected on each visitor who used the trail. Senator ASHURST. Are they opposed to tolls being collected? Mr. EAKIN. I think that was their idea.

Senator ASHURST. But they collect tolls on nearly every national park?

Mr. EAKIN. Not in this park, sir.

Senator ASHURST. I mean, in most every national park tolls are collected.

Mr. EAKIN. On the older national parks, yes, sir, but not the

newer ones.

Senator ASHURST. Why does it so happen that they were so anxious to collect tolls in other national parks like Yellowstone, Yosemite and did not like this toll here?

Mr. EAKIN. I have been informed that Congress was the one who insisted on creating revenue from the parks and that they have not so desired in the recent parks located. I think it is entirely up to Congress.

Senator CAMERON. Mr. Eakin, can you name what the Government gets out of the revenue collected from the park?

Mr. EAKIN. No, sir, it goes to miscellaneous receipts.

Senator CAMERON. For instance, here in the Grand Canyon National Park, doesn't Mr. Harvey or the Harvey Corporation derive most all of the benefits that is collected in this national park? Mr. EAKIN. They have the greatest volume of business. Senator CAMERON. Don't they derive nearly all of the benefit? Mr. EAKIN. Yes, I should say so.

Senator CAMERON. Doesn't the Government appropriate money to pay your salary and the rangers' salaries?

Mr. EAKIN. Yes, sir.

Senator CAMERON. And then you turn that profit over to the Harvey system without any compensation to the Government! Mr. EAKIN. No, sir; they pay a certain percentage of their income. Senator CAMERON. How much do they pay?

Mr. EAKIN. I haven't the contract. Mr. Bolton has the contract. Senator CAMERON. They have practically exclusive contract in the Grand Canyon National Park?

Mr. EAKIN. That is what it amounts to at present.

Senator CAMERON. And the railroad up here brings the people into the park?

Mr. EAKIN. Yes, sir.

Senator CAMERON. And you were authorized, through Mr. Mather, the director in Washington, to build these new trails-what is the name of that trail?

Mr. EAKIN. Kaibab Trail, we have called it.

Senator ASHURST. Now, this committee is going to visit other national parks. We are not satisfied with the way in which our national parks are being administered. The parks are for the people and we find everywhere that the national park officials, and Wash-. ington is partly to blame, if not wholly to blame for this, that the people are harassed, they are spied upon, they are treated as objects of suspicion when they attempt to enter a park. You don't allow them to bring in a pistol?

Mr. EAKIN. No.

Senator ASHURST. Why not?

Mr. EAKIN. Because our regulations, as a matter of policy, which were promulgated, say not.

Senator ASHURST. Washington says not?

Mr. EAKIN. Not.

Senator ASHURST. You can't bring in a dog?

Mr. EAKIN. You can bring him in and keep him under leash. Senator ASHURST. Of course, if you happen to manage the hotel, you get a special permit?

Mr. EAKIN. I haven't anything to do with that.

Senator ASHURST. If you are the official-the manager of that hotel, you can bring a dog in?

Mr. EAKIN. We stopped him when he

Senator ASHURST. It was not made in favor of any cowboy or any sheepman?

Mr. EAKIN. No, sir.

Senator ASHURST. Or any wandering sheep herder coming in, if one should have a dog. That exception was not in his favor, but was in favor of one who had considerable influence, wasn't it?

Mr. EAKIN. I presume so; yes, sir.

Senator ASHURST. Flowers that bloom on this park, do you allow them to waste their sweetness on the mountain air or do you reprimand citizens who gather them?

Mr. EAKIN. Ordinarily we rebuke the citizen for gathering them. Senator ASHURST. You prefer that they waste themselves?

Mr. EAKIN. No: we prefer that they reseed themselves. That is our argument solely.

Senator ASHURST. What would you do if a citizen attempted to come in with a gun or pistol?

Mr. EAKIN. Well, everyone has always been very courteous. We tell them that our instructions are that guns must be sealed when they come in and they never raise any question.

Senator ASHURST. What would you say if he were to r ad to you the Federal Constitution of the United States, which says that the right of the people to bear arms shall not be abridged?

Mr. EAKIN. I don't know.

Senator ASHURST. The Constitution of the United States applies to national parks, and Congress has never deprived the people of the United States on any part of this park of the right to bear

arms.

Senator CAMERON. I would like to ask you, Mr. Eakin, if your rangers carry guns?

Mr. EAKIN. I think not, sir. They may, when they go out on their patrols, carry pistols.

Senator ASHURST. For what purpose?