STATEMENT OF MR. W. E. WILTBANK, OF EAGER, ARIZ. Senator CAMERON. Give your full name, please. Mr. WILTBANK. W. E. Wiltbank. Senator CAMERON. Are you a resident of Springerville? Senator CAMERON. You are in the stock business, are you? Senator CAMERON. Cattle or sheep? Mr. WILTBANK. Cattle. Senator CAMERON. Are you on the forest reserve? Mr. WILTBANK. Yes, sir. Senator CAMERON. Apache Forest Reserve? Mr. WILTBANK. Yes, sir. Senator CAMERON. How long have you been in the business? Mr. WILTBANK. Well, ever since I was old enough. My father came here in '79. Senator CAMERON. Well, then we have another expert in the cattle business. Mr. WILTBANK. Well, I don't know, I couldn't qualify as an expert. Senator CAMERON. Now, would you like to make a statement to the committee or would you prefer to have questions asked you? Mr. WILTBANK. I haven't heard this matter discussed now. My cattle have been raised on the forest and they cut me down to, I understand, 138 head. My cattle run along the forest and somebody leaves the gate open and some ranger will have to come and notify me to get them cows off, and I have a trespass case, the way the matter stands. I know I have been cited for trespass two or three times, and I don't think we have a fair deal on that at all. Senator CAMERON. You feel that you have been charged with trespass when you were not at fault? Mr. WILTBANK. No, sir; it wasn't my fault. My cattle run on the outside of the forest and the gate is left open or a tree falls on the forest fence and my cattle goes in there and they will trespass on it. Senator CAMERON. You could not help it? Mr. WILTBANK. No, sir; not possibly. Senator ASHURST. Did you pay the trespass fee? Mr. WILTBANK. Certainly; they came in and I had to cough up. I give them a check on the First National Bank of El Paso, Tex. Mr. BOWDEN. You are very much in favor of a board of some kind to review those matters? Mr. WILTBANK. I certainly am. We never had a man here yet who I believe was capable of handling both sides. While I like Mr. Sizer too Senator ASHURST. That is no reflection on anybody they have out here. There is no man capable of handling both sides; no man is big enough to judge, gather the witnesses, and prosecute; no man on earth big enough to do that. Mr. WILTBANK. They don't try to do that; they just simply do away with all witnesses and all of that stuff and tell you what to do. Senator CAMERON. And if you don't do it, what would happen? Mr. WILTBANK. Well, they said the permit would be canceled. Senator CAMERON. They told you that? X Mr. WILTBANK. Yes, sir. Senator ASHURST. And that would mean ruination? Mr. WILTBANK. Yes, sir. Senator CAMERON. Now, is there any question you would like to talk about? Mr. WILTBANK. Well, there is another question. I don't believe that the protective limit on cattle and sheep is proportioned right. It is 150 on cows and 2,000 on sheep, and a man couldn't make a living on 150 head of cattle. Senator CAMERON. How many cattle should a man have under the most favorable circumstances, as you know them in the past, to make what would be called a respectable living? Mr. WILTBANK. Well, I couldn't say; I am working for the State highway department trying to make a living and they figured I had 350 head of cows. Senator CAMERON. And you don't think 350 head of cows is enough to make a living with? Mr. WILTBANK. I couldn't make a living on them. Senator CAMERON. If you had an allotment for grazing land and a permit to graze 350 cows and had charge of it yourself, do you feel that you could make a living off of it? Mr. WILTBANK. Yes, sir. Senator CAMERON. But you don't feel that you could make a living off of much less than that? Mr. WILTBANK. Well, you couldn't make much of a living. Senator CAMERON. You think a man ought to have 350 head of cattle and have range facilities accordingly to make a living? Mr. WILTBANK. Yes, sir. Senator ASHURST. And 2,000 sheep? Mr. WILTBANK. Now, then, I am getting at the sheepman. I just. maintain that the cowman hasn't got a fair rating with the sheepmen, now 2,000 sheep and 150 cows is too much in favor of the sheepman. Senator CAMERON. How would it do to raise the cowman and let the sheepman remain where he is? Mr. WILTBANK. That is all right. Senator CAMERON. In other words, you don't think that the two men have an equal show? Mr. WILTBANK. No, sir. Senator CAMERON. Anything else you would like to say? Mr. WILTBANK. No, sir. Senator CAMERON. Thank you very much. The committee will stand adjourned to meet at the call of the chairman. 43213-25-PT 464 NATIONAL FORESTS AND THE PUBLIC DOMAIN THURSDAY, JUNE 18, 1925 UNITED STATES SENATE, SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC LANDS AND SURVEYS, Grand Canyon National Park, Ariz. The subcommittee met, pursuant to adjournment of Wednesday, June 17, at 10.30 o'clock a. m., at the schoolhouse in Grand Canyon National Park, Ariz, Senator Ralph H. Cameron, presiding. Senator CAMERON. The committee will come to order. Mr. Eakin, will you take the stand please? Mr. Eakin, will you give your full name, your residence and your occupation? STATEMENT OF MR. J. R. EAKIN, GRAND CANYON, ARIZ. . Mr. EAKIN. My name, the way I sign it, is J. R. Eakin. I am superintendent of the Grand Canyon National Park. My residence is Grand Canyon, Ariz. Senator CAMERON. How long have you been superintendent of the Grand Canyon National Park? Mr. EAKIN. Since January a year ago. Senator CAMERON. Have you been employed by any park before coming here? Mr. EAKIN. Yes, I was superintendent of Glacier Park for approximately two years-Glacier National Park approximately two years. Senator CAMERON. You have full charge of the park here except what orders you get from Washington? Mr. EAKIN. I have, sir, except most of the policy is settled by the Washington office, but in administration, protection, maintenance, and construction. Senator CAMERON. Mr. Bowden, take the witness. Mr. BOWDEN. Prior to your work at Glacier Park, what were you engaged in? Mr. EAKIN. I was topographic engineer in the United States Geological Survey for, I should say, approximately 19 or 20 years. The exact time, I don't know. Mr. BOWDEN. You transferred from the United States Geological Survey to the Park Service? Mr. EAKIN. Yes sir. Mr. BOWDEN. Who is the officer next in line to you at this park? Mr. EAKIN. Mr. George C. Bolton, whose title is assistant superintendent and disbursing officer. Mr. BOWDEN. Now, will you give the organization of the personnel here for the administration of this park? Mr. EAKIN. Yes sir. We have in my immediate office, at work in the same building with me, myself, Mr. Bolton, Mr. D. D. Douglas, who is cost clerk and accountant, and Mr. I. I. Harrison, who is rated as clerk-stenographer. That is upstairs. Downstairs, at the information office, there is always a ranger on duty to give information to the public along any lines that they may solicit it. Mr. BOWDEN. Who is in charge of the rangers here? Mr. EAKIN. T. Scoyen, with title of chief ranger. Mr. BOWDEN. I believe Mr. Scoyen is the son-in-law of Judge Finney? Mr. EAKIN. Yes, sir. Mr. BOWDEN. Assistant Secretary of the Interior? Mr. EAKIN. Yes, sir. Mr. BOWDEN. How many rangers do you have, Mr. Eakin? Mr. EAKIN. We have normally, I think, seven. It may be eight. I would have to check that up. Then, in addition to that number there are a number of temporary rangers. There are now, I think, four temporary rangers in addition to that. Mr. BOWDEN. The rangers are all under civil service? Mr. BOWDEN. Who makes the appointments? Mr. EAKIN. The Director of the National Park Service. Of course, he handles them as appointing head in the Department of the Interior and the appointments are made through the regular channels. Mr. BOWDEN. That includes both the regular and the temporary rangers? Mr. EAKIN. The entire ranger force; yes, sir. Mr. BOWDEN. What salaries are paid the rangers? Mr. EAKIN. This park, you mean, of course? I don't know conditions at other parks. They are started at $1,440 per annum, heat, light, and quarters, and that is a probational appointment for six months and, if their services have been satisfactory, at the end of six months, they are so certified and I think we have been told hereafter to give them about $1,500 per year, which is an increase of $5 per month. Mr. BOWDEN. Are there any further increases given the rangers? Mr. EAKIN. The new personnel reclassification report makes provision for them to be promoted up to a certain salary, which I have forgotten. I will ask Mr. Bolton, if you desire that, for he may remember what it is. Do you desire that information? Mr. BOWDEN. I will get that from Mr. Bolton. Mr. EAKIN. But it does not necessarily follow that they will be promoted to that. There is authorization for that if justified and funds are available. Mr. BOWDEN. You make the recommendations for promotion? Mr. EAKIN. Yes, sir; the recommendation goes through me. Mr. BOWDEN. How many rangers are stationed on the south rim of the Canyon? Mr. EAKIN. On the south rim of the Canyon there is at present one ranger and his wife, who has been given $60 per month to assist in checking. They are the two at the checking station. Chief Ranger Scoyen is also stationed here. Mr. Phillips, who acts for |