Senator SPENCER. It would be helpful perhaps if we had the rules and regulations before the revision and the rules and regulations after the revision both incorporated. Colonel GREELEY. Would you like those in both cases, both in grazing and timber? Senator SPENCER. I think so. Senator CAMERON. Yes. The CHAIRMAN. Yes; we would. Colonel GREELEY. All right, sir; we will furnish them to you. (The new grazing regulations here referred to and furnished by Mr. Sherman will be found at the end of this day's proceedings. See page 41.) The CHAIRMAN. Or if you have a brief of the revisions that have been made it would be sufficient, so that we can tell what changes have been made. Colonel GREELEY. We have been rather thoroughly overhauling all of the regulations dealing with the national forests during the last two years, and I think it would be most satisfactory, most easily used for references, if we gave you the completed copy of each, the earlier regulations, and the new ones. It is going to make your record rather voluminous, but we will be glad to furnish that material. The CHAIRMAN. We are anticipating rather a voluminous record of our hearings before we are through with them. Senator SPENCER. Would it be possible, Colonel Greeley, in furnishing that information, either on the old regulations or on the new regulations, whichever might be more convenient to you, to have in some way indicated the changes between the two? So that if we took up, for example, the new regulations, in reading them we would see in connection with our reading of them what the old ones were and what the changes were, and that would save a good deal of time of comparison on our part. Is that too much of an undertaking? Colonel GREELEY. We will do that as best we can, at least as to all the more important changes. There are a good many minor changes that it might be difficult to indicate, but we will indicate the more important changes. The CHAIRMAN. To the members of the committee in particular, and to you gentlemen, I have prepared a sort of a questionnaire or a summary of information that had occurred to me that we might want. Of course as the hearings continue undoubtedly we I would add to this. I would like to read this for the benefit of the committee and those present. This is "Information from the Secretary of Agriculture which would be useful to the committee ": Listing the national forests according to States in which located, to show for each 1. Total area in acres. 2. Acres of timberland. 3. Acres useful for grazing. 4. Acres not useful for grazing (rough, barren, or too heavily timbered). 5. Length of grazing season (a) For cattle. (b) For sheep. 6. Number of sheep and cattle for which grazing is sufficient in season under usual conditions. 7. Number of livestock (each of cattle, sheep) admitted 1923. 8. Number of livestock (each of cattle, sheep) admitted each year since 1906. 9. Charge for cattle and sheep for season in each year. 10. For each of years 1906, 1910, 1918, 1919, 1920, and 1924: (a) Number of permits issued for sheep, cattle. (b) Number of permits for under 100 head sheep, cattle. Of course that would only be for sheep, because I suppose you have no permits for that number of cattle. 11. Average area of 'dependent crop or grazing lands owned by each of above classes in 1923 or 1924. 12. Number of five-year permits issued for 1919 to 1923. 13. Number of 10-year permits issued in 1925. 14. Collections each year (a) From grazing. (b) From timber. 15. Number permits (and stock included) applied for and not granted in 1922, 1923, and 1924. Also any information available as to numbers of stock grazed upon the public domain (by States). That is some information that I thought we would like to have from the Department of Agriculture. Senator SPENCER. Of course, if there was any information incidental to those queries which the Department of Agriculture might themselves think of as amplifying it or explaining it, we would be very glad to have that incorporated also. Mr. BARNES. Mr. Chairman, may I suggest this? You would not object to our changing your schedule from 100, and so on, to fit our records? The CHAIRMAN. Not at all. This is only suggestive, and any way that you have of presenting your record will be satisfactory. Mr. BARNES. Our method has been of dividing cattle from 1 to 40, 40 to 100, 101, and so on. The CHAIRMAN. Any way that would attain the desired result. I have also prepared some suggestions of information that I thought we would like to get from the Secretary of the Interior or the Interior Department: 1. Area of unreserved public domain in each State. 2. Classes of land and stock carrying capacity in public domain (by States). I do not want to assume that they can give that information. However, they might have that knowledge and it would be well for us to request it. Mr. BARNES. We have it all published. The CHAIRMAN. Then they can get it. 3. Names and areas of Indian reservations in each State. 4. Received from grazing leases, each reservation. That is, they lease the Indian reservations and the amount of stock. 5. Number each class of livestock so grazed in 1924. That is, on the Indian reservation. 6. Rate of charge per acre or per head. 7. Information similar to above re lands reserved for reclamation. It will appear in the record that it was stated earlier that the Department of the Interior did not lease or issue permits for grazing. Now, that is on the unreserved areas. They have certain reserved areas on which they issue permits, or I think it is done by leasing in acres. The withdrawn areas for reclamation purposes have in some instances been leased by the Interior Department, and the Indian reservations for many years in some States have been leased for grazing purposes. 8. Area of land in each State reserved for national park. 9. Area of land in each State reserved for other purposes. 10. Number homestead filings of each class in each State in 1922, 1923, 1924. 11. Number entries (each class and by States) that should have been completed but were not completed in 1922, 1923, 1924. Now, undoubtedly as we go along we can add to this, because there is much information, I know, that we are not going to think of without suggestion that we will want to acquire. Colonel Greeley, have you anything in mind that you might state to the committee that you think would be helpful to us in the conduct of our hearings? We will be glad to have any statement. that you have in mind to make, or any statement that your associates may wish to make. Colonel GREELEY. Only this, Mr. Chairman, that at the proper time, or whenever the committee desires it, I would like to have an opportunity for representatives of the Forest Service to give the committee our viewpoint on a number of these questions, such as the policy in allotting public range as between the desirability of maintaining stable use by the established ranch men, and the desirability of providing for the newcomers who acquire lands and wish to establish themselves in the livestock business, usually in a small way. That has been one of the big problems that we have had to deal with keeping the established range user with as stable range rights as possible, and at the same time making reasonable provision for the new settlers and homesteaders whose lands require national forest range for their proper development. I would like to bring out something of the history and policy that we have followed in that, and lead up to the provision in our present instructions for the 10-year grazing permits, which represents our solution of that problem. I would also like at the proper time to give the committee our viewpoint as to the policy in charging for the use of national forest range lands, going into the history of that to some extent, and sketching the development of our grazing fees from the first regulation in 1905, when the Secretary of Agriculture took over the national forests, to the present time. It might take us a couple of hours to discuss those subjects, but I would like, whenever you desire to do so, to have the opportunity to take them up with you. The CHAIRMAN. I am sure that the committee is very desirous of having that information and that assistance, and it occurs to me that we should have that in the very beginning of our hearings. We are expecting to go into the field and hold hearings, and undoubtedly such a statement from you will be helpful to the committee in the conduct of those hearings. When would you be prepared to appear before the committee and give us that information? Colonel GREELEY. Well, I can do that with the assistance of Mr. Barnes, Mr. Sherman, and Mr. Rachford. Mr. Barnes and Mr. Rachford particularly have been very directly identified with this work for a good many years, and I would like to have them help me with it. I can do it almost any time. It would be particularly convenient for me if it could be done early next week. Senator CAMERON. You could not do it to-morrow? Colonel GREELEY. Yes; if you desire, I can do it to-morrow. Senator CAMERON. Well, the only reason I suggest that is thiswe do not want to hurry you-but we have got a lot of work to do, and I think one of the most important things that would come up before us is the matter of grazing fees; and if we could have it to start with, if it would not be an inconvenience to you, it would be raluable to us. Colonel GREELEY. Yes; I would be glad to arrange it for tomorrow, if you wish it. The CHAIRMAN. If there is no objection, we will set Tuesday for the day to hear Colonel Greeley and the representatives of the Bureau of Forestry. The committee will convene at 10.30 on Tuesday morning for that purpose. While we have set Tuesday to hear Colonel Greeley and the representatives of the Bureau of Forestry, could we not meet to-morrow and hear Judge Finney or some one from the Department of the Interior? I think they have a formal statement that they want to submit, and we can get that in the record. If there is no objection, the committee will stand adjourned until 10.30 to-morrow. Mr. BOWDEN. Mr. Chairman, are there any books or documents that were called for and that were brought to-day that have not been introduced into the record? The CHAIRMAN. I understand that they are not now able to furnish us with the rules and regulations. Mr. Bowden is going to be with the committee and is going to assist us in this work, and I hope that the department-I know they will-will extend to him all courtesies possible. We would like for him to have any and all such information as he may request. Colonel GREELEY. We will be very glad to do that, Mr. Chairman, You will give us a copy of the questionnaire that you read, covering the information that you would like to have from the national forests! It is going to take us some little time to get all of that together. The CHAIRMAN. If you wish, Colonel Greeley, I will have an extra transcript of the hearing made and supplied to you. Colonel GREELEY. Thank you. I take it that we may have time enough on this questionnaire to collect the information we will need from our district offices in order to cover it completely. The CHAIRMAN. Yes. Colonel GREELEY. Some of this information, particularly that as to the dependent crop or grazing lands owned by each of the classes of permittees, will require the obtaining of a certain amount of data from the field. We would like to have time enough to do that thoroughly and accurately, perhaps furnishing our complete data for your record in the course of the next two or three months. Will that be satisfactory? The CHAIRMAN. Of course, we can not expect you to do more than is humanly possible. We hope you will expedite it and furnish it to us as rapidly as possible. Senator CAMERON. Could you not furnish it to us as fast as you obtain it? The CHAIRMAN. Yes; as much of it as you have available at a time, without waiting to complete it. Colonel GREELEY. Just as fast as we can finish one section of it we can furnish it to you. I think it would be better to do it in that way rather than attempt to subdivide it further than that. We could furnish you with this information State by State or national forest district by district. Mr. BARNES. Would it not answer your purpose to know, in a general way, the amount of land that these men have, on a sort of average? The CHAIRMAN. Yes; and that is all I had in mind. Mr. BARNES. Really I do not see what you would get out of anything more than that. You would simply have a record of from 36,000 to 40,000 individuals, showing that they are landowners and the amount of land they own. I think we could summarize it and show you what our requirements are for the different men. The CHAIRMAN. I think that would suffice. I did not contemplate that you should go into the detail of it, but only in a general way. Colonel GREELEY. As I understand this, the Senator wants to get the average area for the average permittee for each of these groups? The CHAIRMAN. That is it. Colonel GREELEY. That is, that the average permittee who grazes up to 100 head of cattle owns so many acres of dependent ranch property that requires the use of the national forest range for a successful enterprise and that the average permittee of each of the other groups has so many acres? That is the form in which you would like to have the information? The CHAIRMAN. That is the form, Colonel Greeley. If we can get that from you in a general way we will supplement it in our field hearings. As I started to say a moment ago, in our field work we will furnish you our itinerary, and then we would like for you to advise your district offices and officers in the field where we are going and ask them to endeavor to cooperate with us and assist us in our hearings. Colonel GREELEY. Certainly we will be glad to do that. Senator SPENCER. You may think of other ways by which that information could be curtailed or the gathering of it facilitated. The CHAIRMAN. Yes; and we shall be glad to have any recommendations that you may offer in that respect. That is not at all an arbitrary demand; it is only a request. We want your cooperation, and if you can simplify it so that it will still suffice for the desires of the committee, we will be glad to modify the request. |