Mr. BOWDEN. Have you any other matters that you would like to bring before this committee? Mr. JAQUES. No; unless it would be the crossing of sheep over the Indian reservation. One of my permits is on the extreme west side of the reservation, and my summer range was some 60 miles east. Years ago I crossed the sheep over north, over the forest reserve and back onto the summer permit and did the same thing in the fall, going to the winter permit. Later, through Superintendent Pierson, I had permission from Commissioner Sells to cross direct from the Grasshopper Range to what we call the Smith Park Range. I had to cross several of the Indian allotments, and I did this for a number of years. Finally, there was quite an opposition by Mr. Davis's stockmen, and Mr. Davis has always been very much opposed to trailing stock from one permit to another; so he kept getting a little worse and worse and finally absolutely refused to let me go across any more. He said he would sooner cancel my permit than let me cross this 60 miles from one range to the other. He said he would let me cross three bands if I would promise to never ask for grazing permit any more. I thought it wouldn't hurt then to take the three bands across and get the benefit of that, and since then I have never asked him. I have had to cross over the forest reserve, over two trails each year, going and coming. That, of course, has worked a hardship, more or less, on the Forest Service, but they have been kind enough to let me go across. Mr. BOWDEN. There are no driveways established on the reservation, are there? Mr. JAQUES. In just a place or two, and those are mostly over permittee's range; none hardly over the Indian range. Mr. BOWDEN. Have you anything more? Mr. JAQUES. No; I believe that is all. Mr. BOWDEN. Thank you very much, Mr. Jaques. Senator CAMERON. Is there any other witness to come before the committee? We will adjourn to meet at Grand Canyon to-morrow morning at 8 o'clock. Thank you, gentlemen, for your attendance. NATIONAL FORESTS AND THE PUBLIC DOMAIN FRIDAY, JUNE 19, 1925 SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES, PUBLIC LANDS AND SURVEYS, Holbrook, Ariz. The subcommittee met at 1.30 p. m. pursuant to adjournment at 10 p. m., June 18, 1925, at the courthouse, Senator Ralph H. Cameron pr. siding. Senator CAMERON. The committee will come to order. Mr. Owens, will you take the witness chair? STATEMENT OF MR. C. E. OWENS, OF SNOWFLAKE, ARIZ. Senator CAMERON. Will you give your full name to the committee? Mr. OWENS. C. E. Owens. Senator CAMERON. Your residence? Mr. OWENS. Snowflake, Ariz. S.nator CAMERON. You are chairman of the board of supervisors? Mr. OWENS. Not now, not this year. Senator CAMERON. You are a member? Mr. OWENS. Yes, sir. Senator CAMERON. Of Navajo County? Mr. OWENS. Yes, sir. Senator CAMERON. Now, you have a statement you would like to make to this committee and we would like to have you do it in your own way. Mr. OWENS. The main thing we want to get before the committee is the need for more money for the roads. Senator CAMERON. Just state the full conditions. Mr. OWENS. Now, 70 per cent of the public lands is in the Government and one of the roads we want is from Holbrook to Keams Canyon, which is almost entirely a Government proposition. Senator CAMERON. I wish you would elaborate a little on that. Mr. OWENS. There are 40 miles of this road that is reservation property. Mr. BOWDEN. What reservation? Mr. OWENS. The Navajo Reservation. Half of the land outside of the reservation is Government land. It runs north from here about 80 miles. Mr. BOWDEN. You mean public domain? Mr. OWENS. Public domain; and up to the present time the Government has not spent anything on this road for the last six or eight years and the county has spent from six to ten thousand dollars to keep this road open and maintain it. We have built some bridges on there in the last two years at a cost of about $6,000, and while we are a large county in area we are a small county as to valuation. We have felt that the Government should keep the road up. Our engineer has been over the road and made an approximate estimate of the cost of the entire road. It runs about $90,000. On the reservation property it would not be that much, but there are some bridges that it is absolutely necessary to put in. Mr. BOWDEN. Where are those bridges, on the reservation? Mr. OWENS. On the reservation. Mr. Hayden introduced a bill I think in the last Congress for an appropriation to put in the bridges, but that is only part of it. Last winter the mail was three days in making 40 miles of this road. We have tried to get some money for this, but we don't admit that this is a local affair. This is a Government affair. The people in a way are generous you know, but now we are asking that the Government loosen up and spend some of its money on this road that goes into the reservation. Mr. BOWDEN. Is there much travel on this road? Mr. OWENS. Yes, sir; there is. Mr. Miller here, I think, can give you a better estimate on that than I can. Mr. BOWDEN. The road runs from Holbrook to where? Mr. OWENS. We call it the Holbrook Young Road. It connects with the main road that goes from Globe to the Roosevelt Dam. Mr. BOWDEN. It is in the primary road system of the State? Mr. OWENS. Well, it will be. It is one of the main roads in the State. We feel like the forest department ought to take hold of that road. The survey has been made on that road and has been approved. Mr. BOWDEN. How much of that road is on the forest reserve? Mr. BOWDEN. What would be the total length of the road? Mr. BOWDEN. And you want the forest department to build the road through the forest? Mr. OWENS. We want the forest department to take care of the road in the forest. The county has got the road almost completed up to the forest line. Mr. BOWDEN. What area of this county is in public lands in one form or another. Mr. OWENS. About 70 per cent. Mr. BOWDEN. To your knowledge has the United States Government spent here any money in the building or improvement of roads this year? Mr. OWENS. No; not this year they haven't. Mr. BOWDEN. Did they last year? Mr. OWENS. No; not last year. Senator CAMERON. Mr. Owens, the road that you have reference to, from here to Keam's Canyon, isn't that the old road that in the early days we did all the freighting out of Holbrook on? Mr. OWENS. Yes, sir. Senator CAMERON. And in those days nearly all of the freight was furnished to the reservation by Holbrook? Mr. OWENS. Yes, sir. Senator CAMERON. Is that still going on at Holbrook? Senator CAMERON. Well, it seems to me that the Indian Bureau should give this matter very serious consideration for the reason that that is practically the only road on which we can get freight into that section of the country. Mr. OWENS. Yes, sir. Senator CAMERON. What is the distance from Holbrook-80 miles? Mr. OWENS. Eighty miles; yes, sir. Senator CAMERON. And any other way would be a good deal over a hundred miles? Mr. OWENS. Now, as to the most exact information on that I would rather you would ask Mr. Miller. The Indian agent out there is here and he can tell you about the road to Keam's Canyon and Springerville. Senator CAMERON. It is about 20 miles farther to Springerville. Mr. OWENS. I believe Mr. Miller can tell you more about that than I can. Senator CAMERON. All right, thank you Mr. Owens. STATEMENT OF MR. EDGAR K. MILLER, OF KEAMS CANYON, ARIZ. Senator CAMERON. Give your name to the reporter. Mr. MILLER. Edgar K. Miller. Senator CAMERON. You are located at Keams Canyon? Mr. MILLER. Yes, sir. Mr. Owens referred to that reservation as the Navajo Reservation. Let me correct it, it is the Hopi Reservation. Senator CAMERON. How long have you been at Keams Canyon? Mr. MILLER. About a year and three-quarters. Senator CAMERON. Will you give this committee what information you can concerning the road that is now used from Holbrook to Keams Canyon? Mr. MILLER. You mean the present condition of the road? Senator CAMERON. You are the agent of the Indian Service, the superintendent here. Is there not about 40 miles of that road that runs over the reservation? Mr. MILLER. Yes, sir; a little more than that. Senator CAMERON. The committee is very desirous of having your version of why this road should be improved. Mr. MILLER. That is the only road we can get freight over. That is the main mail route, star route. At certain times of the year it is impassable owing to its present condition and the want of bridges. At times we have had mail held up for two weeks because of the washes being filled with water and we couldn't get across. This present year we spent about $125,000 out there building a new school. Every bit of freight was handled by Navajo Indians, and a great many times they would carry the freight across the washes on their backs. We figure if we had a road that was even graded through from the south end of the reservation to Holbrook the Government would be that much better off financially, and also that it was something that was absolutely needed. Now, so far as the road on the reservation is concerned, I feel we can handle that through general routine work and correspondence and legislation connected with our business, but there is a gap from the southern boundary to Holbrook that we have to use. It wouldn't do us any good to put our end in good shape if we don't have a good road going over between the south line and Holbrook. To my knowledge we never could have used that road; we never could have gotten the freight through if the county hadn't gone to work and done road work on that road. As about 70 per cent of the land in Arizona is public lands, Indian lands, and Government lands, the counties, of course, can not do very much. They are doing everything they can do and have done a lot more than we have asked them to. Senator CAMERON. Your department will cooperate with us and with the representatives in Washington to get an appropriation through. Mr. MILLER. As I said before, I think we won't have much trouble in getting the portion that is on the Hopi Indian Reservation, so far as that goes. Senator CAMERON. The obstacle in the way would be to get it on the public domain? Mr. MILLER. Yes. Senator CAMERON. And I believe, under the conditions, and knowing the situation as well as I do and have for the last 40 years, and knowing that is the only practical way that freight can be transported into the reservation from the main lines of the Santa Fe Railway, I feel very hopeful that we may get an appropriation to build this road. Of course, we won't get it by just saying we are going to get it, but we will get it if the conditions warrant it. I believe and I hope we will be successful. I understand you have the engineer here with the estimate as to how much it will cost? Mr. MILLER. Yes. Senator CAMERON. And we will be glad to hear from him, and Senator Ashurst will do all he can, and I am sure I will, because I believe it is a meritorious proposition which should be built and the Government should build it. Mr. MILLER. Another thing I would like to mention is this: If that road could be put into the 7 per cent fund, you know, where we get the public funds, of course, that would help out a great deal. That is one thing we brought out last year, but they had already selected those primary roads and we couldn't make it. Now it may be that we can do it. Senator ASHURST. The mail goes out from Holbrook to Keams Canyon? Mr. MILLER. Yes, sir. Senator ASHURST. That is a star route? Mr. MILLER. Yes, sir. Senator ASHURST. What is the trouble? Mr. MILLER. Because the road has not been selected by the State authorities as within the 7 per cent system. Senator ASHURST. We will try to take care of it. Mr. MILLER. I want to say this in connection with my statements: That Mr. Hayden introduced a bill last year for $40,000 for a road and bridges on the reservation near the agency in connection with |