Mr. GoswICK. On the Coconino National Forest. Senator CAMERON. How many head does this permit call for? Senator CAMERON. How long have you been in the cattle business? Mr. GOSWICK. I have been in the cattle business on this forest about 10 years. Mr. BOWDEN. Has your permit been cut recently? Mr. GoswICK. Yes, sir. Mr. BOWDEN. To what extent? Mr. GoSWICK. I am supposed to take off this year 170 head. Mr. BOWDEN. And that was the basis for your 10-year permit? Mr. GoSWICK. I think the 10-year permit would be 430 head. Mr. BOWDEN. You have been notified that you are to receive that cut of 170 head? Mr. GoSWICK. Yes, sir. Mr. BOWDEN. What have you to say about that cut? Mr. GoswICK. Well, that cut is supposed to be the number I was to get off last year. Mr. BOWDEN. Are you to take this cut this year? Mr. GoSWICK. Yes, sir: I am to take it this year. Mr. BOWDEN. Part of it is what you should have cut last year? Mr. GoswICK. No, sir; I made my cut last year by selling to local butchers, and selling every place I could. I was supposed to cut 116 head last year. Mr. BOWDEN. Do you think you can operate on that small a preference at a profit? Mr. Goswick. Well, it makes a pretty low profit when a fellow has to cut down to where it don't pay. When I started in 10 years ago the homesteader was supposed to have a 300-head preference, I believe up to that and then receive cuts. They cut us 50 per cent inside of three years, so we made those cuts and during the time I bought another outfit and when they went to figure up the cuts I had to cut 170 head and I can not sell these cattle this year for cash, so I am shipping them to a Colorado pasture and taking a chance on fattening them and selling them this fall. Mr. BOWDEN. What have you to say about grazing fees? Mr. GOSWICK. Well, I think they are about 50 per cent too high. Mr. BOWDEN. What are your reasons for that? Mr. GoSWICK. Well, it seems as though about 50 per cent would be close to the cost of operating the forest as I understand it. Mr. BOWDEN. And you think the cost of operating the forest should be the basis in determining the fee? Mr. GoSWICK. Yes, sir; I do. Mr. BOWDEN. Do you favor individual pastures? Mr. GoswICK. I do. Mr. BOWDEN. Have you an individual allotment? Mr. GoswICK. No, sir; I could give you my reasons why I favor individual allotments. Mr. BOWDEN. We would like to have them. Mr. GoswICK. Last winter here was a very bad winter in the valley and we fed 500 tons of cottonseed cake; consequently in the middle of the winter, from January to February, we lost 20 per cent of the calves being born, by them being born in January and Febru ary. That is why I favor the individual allotment, because I could regulate this calf crop by having my bulls in a pasture and taking care of them, and if it happened to come a droughty year and I had to feed my cattle, I could get to them. Senator CAMERON. It would be less expensive to look after them? Mr. GoSWICK. Yes, sir; and you can breed your cattle up and raise better calves at less expense, and it is the only practical way you can run cattle in this country any more. Senator CAMERON. The day of the open range is gone? Mr. GoSWICK. Yes, sir. I think our calf crop this year won't reach over 20 or 25 per cent. It looks awfully short. Mr. BOWDEN. Do you think there ought to be some committee to which you could appeal in event you didn't like a decision of the forest officers? Mr. GoSWICK. Yes, sir. Mr. BOWDEN. Do you think that ought to be a local board? Mr. BOWDEN. What have you to say about the public domain? Mr. GOSWICK. Well, I haven't much to say about the public domain, because we haven't any. We did have some and they extended the forest on down to the Verde River and took it all in. Mr. BOWDEN. You are interested primarily in the forest? Mr. BOWDEN. Is there anything else you would like to tell the committee? Mr. GoswICK. Well, I don't know as there is. STATEMENT OF MR. A. J. LE BARON Senator CAMERON. Mr. Le Baron, you are in the sheep business, are you not? Mr. LE BARON. Yes, sir. Senator CAMERON. Have you a forest permit? Mr. LE BARON. Yes, sir. Senator CAMERON. On what forest? Mr. LE BARON. I have one on the Tusayan and one on the Coconino, and a winter permit on the Prescott. Senator CAMERON. How long have you been in the sheep business! Mr. LE BARON. About 20 years. Mr. BOWDEN. Some time ago you got your range taken away from you, didn't you? Mr. LE BARON. No; I didn't get it taken away from me; I got moved away from a part of it. Part of it was closed and I got moved to another place. Mr. BOWDEN. What was the cause of your range being taken? Mr. LE BARON. Well, they said that my sheep were destroying the young growth of pine. Mr. BOWDEN. In your judgment were your sheep doing as alleged? Mr. LE BARON. No, sir. Mr. BOWDEN. What has that range been used for since? Mr. LE BARON. For cattle. Mr. BOWDEN. In this recent inspection, that range was inspected, was it not? Mr. LE BARON. Yes, sir. Mr. BOWDEN. I refer to the inspection that Colonel Greeley conlucted. n? Mr. LE BARON. Yes, sir; it was inspected. Mr. BOWDEN. Were you present at the time of the inspection? Mr. LE BARON. No, sir; I was not. Mr. BOWDEN. If you know, what condition was that range found Mr. LE BARON. Why, I have been told that there was much damige done there last year, or more than there was while I had sheep here. Mr. BOWDEN. Have you received any cuts on your range? Mr. LE BARON. Yes, several of them. Mr. BOWDEN. State, will you, the cuts you received in the last hree years? Mr. LE BARON. Well, I have been cut from 4,000 to 3,400. Mr. BOWDEN. In the last three years? Mr. LE BARON. I think, in the last three years. Mr. BOWDEN. Have you been notified of a further cut? Mr. LE BARON. Well, I was notified early in the year that I would e cut 42 per cent, but they have made different arrangements and here won't be any cut this year, and I think they have figured the ut down, and when it does come on this forest, the Coconino, it will e 32 per cent, and I believe 15 per cent on the Tusayan. The cut n the Prescott will be from 3,200 to 2,440. That is also held up ntil the range can be gone over by the inspector. Mr. BOWDEN. When are those cuts to take effect? Mr. LE BARON. Why, this cut of 32 per cent, I think that is to tart in 1926 and go over a period of three years. Mr. BOWDEN. An equal amount each year? Mr. LE BARON. Yes, I think that is the way they are going to arange it. Mr. BOWDEN. Were you given any reason for their making this ut? Mr. LE BARON. That the range was overstocked. Mr. BOWDEN. Is your range overstocked? Mr. LE BARON. I don't consider it so. Mr. BOWDEN. Do you have an individual allotment? Mr. BOWDEN. Do you favor individual allotments? Mr. LE BARON. Yes, sir. Mr. BOWDEN. Has the Forest Service made any improvements on our range? Mr. LE BARON. None that I know of. Mr. BOWDEN. What have you to say about grazing fees on the orests? Mr. LE BARON. They are too high. Mr. BOWDEN. What should they be? Mr. LE BARON. Well, about half what they are; and then we hink for the next three years, at least until we can get on our feet again—we are all broke, at least I am, and I don't know how the balance of them are, but I guess they are all in the same boat. Mr. BOWDEN. Do you think the Government should collect more that the cost of operation? Mr. LE BARON. I do not; no, sir. Mr. BOWDEN. What recommendations have you to make relative to changes in the Forest Service? Mr. LE BARON. Well, they have one rule in the Forest Service that I would like to see changed. Under their ruling now, if a fire breaks out on your range, if a camp rustler or foreman lets the fire get away, they arrest him and bring him into town and fine him, and then hold him responsible for the damage. I don't think that is right. The men are all warned about fires, and we do all we can to keep fires down. We can not fight with them every day. That is one of the rulings I would like to see changed. Outside of that, I haven't got anything to say. Mr. BOWDEN. Do you recommend the creation of an appeal board outside of the Forest Service? Mr. LE BARON. Yes, sir. Mr. BOWDEN. Have you any recommendation to make about the public domain? Mr. LE BARON. None at all; we have trouble enough with the Forest Service without mixing up with the public domain. Mr. BOWDEN. Has your permit on the Prescott Forest been cut from a six months basis to a three months basis? Mr. LE BARON. Why, I got notice, as I remember, that it would be cut to a two months basis-I could choose any two of them—or it might have been three months. I could choose it at any time in the fall or spring. Mr. BOWDEN. What reason was given for that change? Mr. LE BARON. I have had a permit there ever since the forest was established, as a winter-grazing permittee. They told me to keep it as an emergency permit. I haven't used it but very little, and now they come along and say that since I have had this permit that I have only used it two months out of the year, and for that reason it ought to be cut down to a two months proposition. I thought I was doing the Forest Service a favor by keeping it, but they don't seem to feel that way. Mr. BOWDEN. In addition, did they cut the number of head of sheep that you had a permit for on that forest? Mr. LE BARON. Yes, sir; I originally had a permit there for 4,000, and if this new cut goes through I will have a permit for 2,440, and part will be on the Bald Hill allotment and part on the Squaw Creek allotment. That will make me too small a bunch of sheep. A man can not afford to run 1,240 sheep in one bunch. A man can not make a living running 2,000 in a band, and this cuts it almost in half and doubles up the expense. Mr. BOWDEN. You need that range? Mr. LE BARON. I certainly do; just as much as we need this range here. Senator CAMERON. Now, the two cuts on the Prescott Forest prac tically puts you out of business? Mr. LE BARON. It will if those two cuts go through. Senator CAMERON. You would have no place to take those sheep? Mr. LE BARON. I can sell those two little bunches, but I couldn't afford to run them. Senator CAMERON. The expense would be too great? Mr. LE BARON. Yes, sir; the way the overhead is nowadays to run sheep I can not run them. Senator CAMERON. No one else could run them? Mr. LE BARON. I don't think so; they can not be run that way. Mr. BOWDEN. Have you presented your side of the case to the forest supervisor of the Prescott Forest? Mr. LE BARON. Well, I haven't to him, but I have presented my case to Colonel Greeley. Senator CAMERON. Did you get any satisfaction from him about the cut? Mr. LE BARON. He said that everything would be held up until t could be investigated to see what could be done. Senator CAMERON. What is there to investigate? Mr. LE BARON. Well, they claim that the range is overstocked and cut will have to be made for the protection of the range. Senator CAMERON. Thank you very much. Senator ASHURST. Thank you. STATEMENT OF MR. NATHAN BANKHEAD, OF FLAGSTAFF, ARIZ. Senator CAMERON. Give your full name to the committee. Mr. BANKHEAD. Nathan Bankhead. Senator CAMERON. Where do you reside? Mr. BANKHEAD. Here in Flagstaff in the summer time. Mr. BANKHEAD. Yes, sir. Senator CAMERON. Have you a permit on any of the forest reerves? Mr. BANKHEAD. On the Tusayan and the Prescott. Senator CAMERON. How long have you been in the sheep business? Mr. BANKHEAD. Well, I have been working sheep here the last 20 ears. Senator CAMERON. You ought to be an expert sheepman by this ime, Mr. Bankhead. Do you care to make a statement to the comittee, or would you rather have the committee ask you questions? Mr. BANKHEAD. The worst part about these cuts they are making he cut to where you can not run sheep at a profit. They are makng them so you have to run seven or eight hundred in a band, and he expense is prohibitive. It should be so you could at least run 00 to 1,000 head in a band, so you could run them at a profit. The way we have had to run sheep the last two or three years with these uts the overhead has pretty nearly eaten all of the profit up. Senator CAMERON. Well, unless you get some relief in some way ou are not going to be in the sheep business long? Mr. BANKHEAD. Absolutely not. If they make cuts in the differnt allotments, so that a man can run at least 900 ewes in a band, ot less, he might run them to a profit; but he can not the way uts are now. The way it is now a fellow might just as well quit he business; if he don't quit voluntarily, he will be forced out. Mr. BOWDEN. Have you any complaint to make on the driveways? |