brand into the steer pasture-I don't determine what shall be sold, but I make the contract for them.

Mr. BOWDEN. You really run the business over there, don't you? Mr. DAVIS. I run the sales part of it.

Mr. BOWDEN. And you run every other part of it, or supervise everything? There isn't a great deal of difference between the tribal herd and the management of the individual herds?

Mr. DAVIS. Not a great deal, except we are able to handle the tribal herds better.

Mr. BOWDEN. More economically and efficiently?

Mr. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BOWDEN. The Government, in effect, then, goes into the livestock business on the reservation?

Mr. DAVIS. We go into the livestock business for the Indians, just as we go into agriculture and schools.

Mr. BOWDEN. And you believe the Indian agent can handle the livestock business better than it could be handled by leasing the ranges to permittees ?

Mr. Davis. I don't think that is subject to answer. We do this to start the Indians in the livestock business, expecting eventually to get out of it.

Mr. BOWDEN. When will they start in the livestock business?

Mr. DAVIS. They are in it; everybody in the country knows they are in it. We have them well started, and they have gained over 50 per cent during my administration. I don't want to say that boastfully, but I don't believe you can find another Indian reservation where that is true. Mr. Shipe here would be the best authority.

Mr. BOWDEN. You apparently have been quite active in the livestock business?

Mr. DAVIS. I have; yes, sir; and I claim I have been successful in it.

Mr. BOWDEN. The leases on your reservation at the present time were granted by you or under your supervision?

Mr. DAVIS. They were granted by me under the system that was approved at Washington.

Mr. BOWDEN. And if, with those leases there was too much grazing on the reservation, the fault is yours?

Mr. DAVIS. In part, certainly.

Mr. BOWDEN. And if the present policy of reduction is justifiable, then it follows that poor judgment was used in letting those leases? Mr. DAVIS. Not necessarily. None of us could foresee these terrible seasons.

Mr. BOWDEN. You think the prospective reductions are necessary because of the bad conditions right now?

Mr. DAVIS. Yes.

Mr. BOWDEN. Under normal conditions your judgment would have been all right?

Mr. Davis. Well, it would depend upon what normal conditions were. If the wet seasons that prevailed the first two years I was here had continued, there would be plenty of feed on the reservation and we would be selling yearling steers that would average 600 pounds.

Mr. BOWDEN. Now, in making these reductions and cancellations, don't you think you ought to be considerate of the financial losses that the lessees must bear, considering also that under normal conditions, or fairly wet seasons, that the range is not overstocked?

Mr. DAVIS. Certainly I should.

Mr. BOWDEN. You don't approve of that policy, except where it seems to be absolutely necessary?

Mr. DAVIS. No, sir; and I have permitted them to hold ranges that we needed very much rather than to put them up against the wall. If I can possibly help it, I don't do that.

Mr. BOWDEN. And yet you have canceled a good many leases?

Mr. DAVIS. Yes, sir; a few leases entirely, and quite a number of cases where I would take part of it.

Mr. BOWDEN. Did you tell Mr. Jaques that the association which you have testified about would have to be curbed or throttled? Mr. DAVIS. No, sir.

Mr. BOWDEN. You never did tell him that?

Mr. DAVIS. I never did.

Mr. BOWDEN. Of course you would remember it if you had?
Mr. DAVIS. That has been four or five years ago.

Mr. BOWDEN. You might have told him?

Mr. DAVIS. I don't think so. I think probably I told him that I would have nothing more to do with it. Mr. Jaques and I have always been very pleasant in our relations.

Mr. BOWDEN. Did you write a letter to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, or to any of his assistants, that this organization would have to be throttled?

Mr. DAVIS. I have no memory of such a thing. I have written thousands of letters since and during the time to the commissioner, and it would be impossible for me to remember.

Mr. BOWDEN. I see.

You approved of the petition of the per

mittees to reduce their fees, or did you not?

Mr. DAVIS. Certainly.

Mr. BOWDEN. You have no objections to it?

Mr. DAVIS. They have that right.

Mr. BOWDEN. And cooperative activity of that sort is to be encouraged, is it not?

Mr. DAVIS. Certainly-well, that is up to them, if they want to do that they have the right.

Mr. BOWDEN. That is all.

Senator CAMERON. Thank you, Mr. Davis.

STATEMENT OF MR. CHESTER R. HOUCK

Senator CAMERON. Mr. Houck, will you give your full name?
Mr. HOUCK. Chester R. Houck.

Senator CAMERON. You are in the cattle business?

Mr. Houck. Sheep business.

Senator CAMERON. You are on the forest reserve?

Mr. Houck. Yes, sir.

Senator CAMERON. You have a permit for how many head of sheep?

Mr. Houck. Two thousand one hundred fifty-two head.

Senator CAMERON. Go ahead and make your statement in your own way.

Mr. HOUCK. Well, since this ground has been covered pretty well and time is getting short, I will make my talk as brief as possible. I would like to touch on a few subjects, of course, about the welfare of the sheepman, and since this cut has been settled, I believe the main point left is the trail and places to care for the sheep during the winter months, during the month of December, before the winter feed grows at Phoenix. Now, inasmuch as this Apache Indian Reservation permits sheep on the reservation, I think it is a duty they owe those sheep to furnish them a trail to their winter range, as far as their reservation lands are concerned. I was once appointed on a committee by the sheep association to meet at the Albuquerque office with the Indian agent-I believe his name was Pierson, if I remember right-and establish that trail, and that was, I believe, in the year of 1916, as I remember it, and we had a very satisfactory meeting. The agent agreed to furnish the trail to a certain point on the desert and the forestry agreed to furnish a trail, and we left there very much encouraged, but I never heard anything more of it; personally I never heard anything more of it. That would eliminate possibly 40,000 sheep being put back on the forest reserve, and they would have to travel way back within 20 miles, I should say, of Holbrook, in behind the Slope Pasture, around by Dry Lake, where they enter the Heber-Reno sheep trail, making a distance of over 2 miles for 1 that they would have to travel that they could avoid by going through the Indian reservation. You see a driveway through there would be a very short driveway and not detrimental to the sheep, like the other, and they wouldn't be destroying the feed.

Senator CAMERON. That is in the Apache Forest?

Mr. HOUCK. That is on the Apache Indian Reservation. Now, then, on the Heber-Reno trail there are four places where the formations are such that you have to come to one passing place, and to start out with they never furnished feed for those sheep; and it is a pretty hard proposition to make a success out of sheep when you have to bring them in with the lambs without anything to eat. Now the mother sheep have to gather nourishment for themselves and offspring, and it is pretty hard to do it after a number of sheep have gone ahead. Now, if that trail can not be put through the reservation, then the Heber-Reno trail should be widened as much as possible. There are two places where that trail could be divided, and one go around one way and one go around the other and come together at the Reno cut, which would give them quite a little more feeding capacity, and something ought to be done on those lines to make it a success. I am not acquainted with the trails west of there. but I am satisfied that they have similar things to contend with, but the trails are not as long as this one is.

Senator CAMERON. Have you any recommendations to make relative to the public domain?

Mr. HOUCK. Well, that is a pretty big question, but I would say inasmuch as this railroad land is concerned there should be some way that it should be controlled. The public domain is a pretty big question, and it occurs to me that it might be just as well the way it is, outside of the railroad alternate sections.

Senator CAMERON. Thank you.

STATEMENT OF MR. JAMES T. RALSTON, OF APACHE MAID, ARIZ.

Senator CAMERON. Give your full name.

Mr. RALSTON. James T. Ralston.

Senator CAMERON. You are a cattleman or a sheepman?

Mr. RALSTON. Cattleman.

Senator CAMERON. Where are you located?

Mr. RALSTON. I am now at Apache Maid.

Senator CAMERON. Have you a permit on the forest reserve?
Mr. RALSTON. I have.

Senator CAMERON. For how many head?

Mr. RALSTON. I think it is 2,080 permanently and about 1,400 temporarily, something like that, 3,400 head, I think, altogether. Senator CAMERON. Would you care to make a statement or would you prefer that the committee question you?

Mr. RALSTON. I believe I would rather you would question me. Mr. BOWDEN. What do you think you ought to pay for grazing fees on the forest?

Mr. RALSTON. I have not been able to pay anything for the last year or two. If I paid anything I had to borrow it from the bank. Mr. BOWDEN. There has been no money to be made in the cattle business?

Mr. RALSTON. No.

Mr. BOWDEN. You are thoroughly in sympathy, of course, for the suspension of fees for this year?

Mr. RALSTON. I certainly am.

Mr. BOWDEN. Do you think the present rate is too high?

Mr. RALSTON. I do.

Mr. BOWDEN. How much too high?

Mr. RALSTON. Well, I think it ought to be based on the cost of administration.

Mr. BOWDEN. You think it ought to be based on the costs of administration of the grazing?

Mr. RALSTON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BOWDEN. Have you had trouble with the forest officers?

Mr. RALSTON. Well, I was in the cow business in the Prescott National Forest. I was born and raised on the Verde Valley, and was in the cow business there before there was a Forest Service here, and they put me out of the cow business down there, and I came up here five years ago and bought this outfit with a permit for 5,200, and now it is cut down.

Mr. BOWDEN. Cut down to what?

Mr. RALSTON. About 3,400.
Mr. BOWDEN. In five years' time?
Mr. RALSTON. In five years.

Mr. BOWDEN. That is quite a cut, isn't it?

Mr. RALSTON. Yes, sir; and the improvements were in the appraisal, appraised at what the ranger thought they were worth at the time, when the cost of one tank was $6,500, and then it was appraised at $2,000, and appraising it that way the cost of improvements on my range is $56,000, and with that overhead there is no hope for a cowman.

Mr. BOWDEN. Are all these improvements on the forest?

Mr. RALSTON. They were on the forest.

Mr. BOWDEN. Were you threatened with other cuts?

Mr. RALSTON. I think there is a 10 per cent cut this year for range protection.

Mr. BOWDEN. Have you a separate allotment?

Mr. RALSTON. No, sir; I am in a community allotment with the Beaver Creek Cattle Association.

Mr. BOWDEN. Have you any range other than the forest range? Mr. RALSTON. No, sir; up until a few years ago there were neutral strips down on the Verde River, and that has been included in the forest since that time. Now it is totally in the forest.

Mr. BOWDEN. You are in favor of a board to settle disputes between forest officers and permittees ?

Mr. RALSTON. I think there ought to be some relief somewhere. Mr. BOWDEN. Do you want to say anything about the public domain, or not?

Mr. RALSTON. No; I believe not. I am not familiar enough with it.

Mr. BOWDEN. But conditions are such that you think there ought to be relief from fees at once and no more reductions?

Mr. RALSTON. There has got to be, if we stay in the business. Mr. BOWDEN. And you want to know, and have some definite status there on the forest?

Mr. RALSTON. Yes, sir.

Senator CAMERON. Are there any other statements that you would like to make, Mr. Ralston?

Mr. RALSTON. I would like to talk some in regard to this smoke down on our winter range.

Senator CAMERON. Go right along.

Mr. RALSTON. We have a summer range up here which carries our cattle, and they go off in the lower part of the range for the winter. Our range will be practically worthless with the winter range killed, and the smoke experts we have had down there tell us within eight years it will be totally ruined. We have applied to the Forest Service and asked them to help us in every way they could.

Mr. BOWDEN. What smelters are they?

Mr. RALSTON. Clemencau and Clarkdale.

Mr. BOWDEN. Are the forest people doing anything on that matter now?

Mr. RALSTON. I think not.

Senator CAMERON. Have they ever done anything?

Mr. RALSTON. No, sir.

Senator CAMERON. You say you called it to their attention many times?

Mr. RALSTON. We have taken them and showed them the range.

Senator CAMERON. And they relieved you by cutting your permits? Mr. RALSTON. Yes; they just kept cutting the cattle.

Mr. BOWDEN. And that is the range you have these improve

ments on?

Mr. RALSTON. No, sir; that is the community allotment. We have always felt like we ought to have some relief from the grazing fees or something.

Mr. BOWDEN. What about the drift fences?