Mr. SMITH. Yes, sir.

Senator ASHURST. And you both examined the ground, and Mr. Davis was in camp?

Mr. SMITH. He was not there.

Senator ASHURST. "Superintendent Davis "-I am reading now from the commissioner's letter, addressed to Senator Cameron, dated December 5, 1925

Superintendent Davis was unable to accompany the committee on account of temporary physical disability, but basing his judgment on his familiarity with the range, and with the conditions existing throughout the reservation, he continued to protest against making any change in Mr. Duffield's permit, unless it would be to reduce the number of cattle to be allowed under the permit.

Now, then, you two gentlemen, you and Mr. Hays, in accordance with your appointment examined and cruised the ground, and you reported that the reasonable grazing of stock thereon would not injure the reservation. That is what the commissioner says your report shows, and that is what you reported. You were a member of the committee, but the member who stayed in camp and who was unable, unfortunately, to assist in making this inspection reported unfavorably, and Mr. Davis, notwithstanding that Commissioner Burke had appointed the committee to make the investigation, turns down his own commissioner. The initials on the letter are H. W. S. That means that some gentlemen-whose initials are H. W. S?

Mr. SMITH. Mr. Shipe.

Senator ASHURST. Mr. Shipe admitted that this letter was signed along with many others, and he signed it mechanically, not knowing, of course, what he signed. You reported in accordance with the facts that you found Mr. Davis's influence was sufficient to overturn the commissioner. Do you think that is a fair way of doing business? Do you think that Superintendent Davis acted fairly in the matter? Would you like to have your property swept away from you by such a procedure? You would not, and I don't blame you for not answering, for probably your livelihood would be swept away if you made the answer you ought to make. Now, then, finally owing to the critical condition of affairs Mr. Shipe came out, did he? Mr. SMITH. He did.

Senator ASHURST. But he did not go upon the ground, did he?
Mr. SMITH. No.

Senator ASHURST. Then without going upon the ground he reported unfavorably, his report became effective, and he wrote this letter, signed by the commissioner, and we have this situation. The two gentlemen who went out and inspected the ground reported favorably and their report was waived aside and the report of the two gentlemen who did not go over the ground was accepted.

Senator CAMERON. You may be excused; we thank you. Gentlemen, as the hour is getting late and our reporters are worn out we will recess until to-morrow morning at 9 o'clock.

NATIONAL FORESTS AND THE PUBLIC DOMAIN

TUESDAY, JUNE 16, 1925

UNITED STATES SENATE,

SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE COMMITTEE ON

PUBLIC LANDS AND SURVEYS,

Flagstaff, Ariz.

The subcommittee met at 9 o'clock a. m., pursuant to adjournment of 11 o'clock p. m., June 15, 1925, in the courthouse, Senator Ralph H. Cameron presiding.

Senator CAMERON. The committee will come to order. Mr. James Scott wishes to be recalled.

STATEMENT OF MR. JAMES SCOTT

Senator CAMERON. Give your name to the reporters.
Mr. Scorr. James Scott.

Senator CAMERON. You have a little statement you wish to make to the committee pertaining to the Heber-Reno driveway. Go ahead and state your case.

Mr. BOWDEN. That is the driveway Mr. Duffield referred to last night?

Mr. SCOTT. Yes, sir; and the Heber-Reno driveway was established for the purpose of taking care of the sheepmen who took their sheep south in the wintertime, and who grazed their sheep on the Sitgreaves Forest and the Apache Forest. That trail runs west of the Apache Indian Reservation; it is just west of the Apache Indian Reservation. Now, that trail, when it was first established, was supposed to be 4 miles wide, and it has been cut down in places to about 400 yards, and I don't think it will average half a mile wide. Now it is 135 miles long, and homesteaders have been allowed to homestead on that trail, and there are places in it where permittees on that portion of the forest have been allowed to fence up water on the trail, the original trail.

There are 65,000 head of sheep permitted on that trail, and they usually go in the fall-that will be from the 1st of November on, sometimes in October, the 1st of October, to November, they all go over the trail. In the spring of the year they usually come back in April. They have to come back at about one time. As it is now, the last sheep coming over there get about as much feed as there is on this table. It is absolutely a disgrace to the American people and the Forest Department to allow sheep to go over that trail as it is. We want to find out if there isn't some way that that trail can be changed. We have taken this matter up with the Forestry

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Department for the last 15 years, and they have promised us that something would be done, but we have never gotten satisfactory results. That trail has been completely narrowed, and it is in that condition to-day.

We want that trail made 4 miles wide, and if it comes to places where there is patented land, we want the trail changed, and we want it established by law that that trail is for the use of sheep only. We don't think it is right the way they have allowed that trail to be settled up by settlers. Homesteaders have come in and taken out homesteads until it has narrowed down to a quarter of a mile, and in some places 400 yards wide. Now, it is absolutely necessary that our sheep go south. There isn't sufficient winter range on this side, and many of us own our ranges down there. We own State land, have it leased, and we are compelled to go there, and that is the only way we can go, except by train.

When we take our sheep over there we lamb them along in February, and some of us are lambing now. Sometimes we lamb in November. The reason we do that is because we can not fatten our lambs there and sell them and get rid of them. If we try to ship them we do it at enormous expense; it costs us $5 a head to produce our lambs, and we can not stand that. Now, if we had that trail made 4 or 5 miles wide, we could lamb our sheep on the trail. The desert blooms in February, and we lamb our sheep out on the open range at a very low cost. Now, if we had a trail that we could bring our sheep back to the mountain ranges and fatten them here we could raise our lambs and put them on the market at a low cost, but absolutely you just as well kill your lambs; you kill them bringing them back.

Mr. BOWDEN. Have you any other driveways?

Mr. Scort. No; that is the only driveway; I am a user of the Sitgreaves Forest. Now, I don't know the condition of the other driveways. We have the Mud Tank, and that takes care of the Winslow country. Now, I am not familiar with the other driveways; there are men here that can tell you about them.

Mr. BOWDEN. This driveway that you refer to goes over the Tonto National Forest?

Mr. Scort. It goes over the Tonto National Forest.

Mr. BOWDEN. And over the Crook Forest?

Mr. SCOTT. No; I don't think it touches the Crook, it is over the Sitgreaves. It goes over the Heber through Pleasant Valley, or Young-the post office is Young.

Mr. BOWDEN. Well, this trail, the Heber-Reno Trail that you refer to, starts over in the vicinity of Heber?

Mr. SCOTT. Yes, sir; and runs down through the Sitgreaves Forest into the Tonto Forest, through Young, or Pleasant Valley. It goes west of Young a little bit.

Mr. BOWDEN. West of Young.

Mr. SCOTT. Yes, sir; through the Reno Pass, crosses the Salt River at Bluepoint, thence southwesterly beyond the Tonto Forest, and leads to the State land east, on the desert east of Mesa, between Mesa and Florence.

Senator CAMERON. Is there anything else you want to state, Mr. Scott?

Mr. SCOTT. There is another thing I want to mention.

Senator CAMERON. All right.

Mr. Scort. I think that the dues on the forest should be the actual unning expenses, taking care of grazing, that is all the grazing, the actual expenses, and that the money collected should be applied to the improvement of the range.

Mr. BOWDEN. The money collected in excess of the actual adminstration cost?

Mr. SCOTT. The excess of the dues should be appiled on improvement of the range.

Senator CAMERON. All right, sir; thank you very much.

Senator ASHURST. Thank you very much, Mr. Scott.

STATEMENT OF MR. JOHN NELSON, OF HEBER, NAVAJO COUNTY, ARIZ.

Senator CAMERON. Mr. Nelson, will you give you full name to the eporters?

Mr. NELSON. John Nelson.

Senator CAMERON. Your residence?

Mr. NELSON. Heber, Navajo County, Ariz.

Senator CAMERON. Mr. Nelson, do you wish to make a statement bout this driveway that Mr. Scott has just been referring to? Mr. NELSON. Yes, sir.

Senator CAMERON. Will you go on and state in your own way that you wish for the benefit of the committee?

Mr. NELSON. I have been running sheep in the Sitgreaves Forest ince 1890. In 1908 the Tonto Forest was established and the trail as laid out for the sheepmen to cross over to the winter range in he fall and back to the home range in the spring. The trail was upposed to have been laid out 4 miles wide. We don't know if it ver was well, we know in a general way it wasn't, because the heepmen had nothing to say about laying it out. It was laid out y the forest men and cowmen. Well, every year that trail has een narrowed in until it has got to be that we just couldn't get Cross. We asked for an investigation of the matter in 1914, and Ir. Reed, the assistant forester from Albuquerque, and I were sent ver the trail to investigate the matter. We started in down on the outhern end of the trail and came north over the Tonto Forest, a istance of about 90 miles, and we found that the trail has just een narrowed up, there were places, for instance, in a place like Reno Pass, where it is nearly impossible to get a wide trail through. There are places we have got to contract, we have got to go in on ccount of natural obstacles, but at Reno the trail was supposed to e a half mile wide, and Mr. Reed and I stepped it off, and it was 00 steps wide.

Senator CAMERON. Or 600 feet?

Mr. NELSON. Yes; 200 steps wide. Well, we had another place here on the other side of Reno where the trail was to be 2 miles ride, and it was a mile and a quarter. I wanted it widened out ere and the cowmen wouldn't allow it. I want to state here that we never have had an investigation but what we have a big delegaon of cowmen along to object; they wouldn't widen it out. At