July 11, to which I referred. He could hardly have received such an answer if the despatch had not been presented.

EARL RUSSELL: I certainly do not find among the papers the despatch of July 11, and Mr. Adams informed me expressly that he had received that despatch and did not hand it to me. That being so, I should not do so useless a thing as endeavour to get up a wrangle with Mr. Adams on a despatch which was never presented.

THE EARL OF DERBY: My reason for asking the question is, that the whole correspondence appears to have been laid before Congress.

RAILWAY SCHEMES (METROPOLIS). MESSAGE FROM THE HOUSE OF COMMONS

To acquaint this House, That they have appointed a Committee consisting of Five Members to join with a Committee of the Lords to consider the best Method of

"dealing with the Railway Schemes proposed to be sanctioned within the Limits of "the Metropolis by Bills to be introduced in "the present Session, and to report their Opinion whether any, and, if any, what "Schemes should not be proceeded with "during the present Session" and to request that their Lordships will be pleased to appoint an equal Number of Lords to be joined with the Members of the House of

Commons.

THE EARL OF HARDWICKE rose to put a Question to the noble Lord the Secretary for War on the subject of our artillery. He wished to know whether Her Majesty's ships were supplied with any guns or projectiles capable of penetrating the sides of a ship armed with plates 4 inches thick. He believed that was a question which had a most important bearing on the warlike resources of this country. Not many years ago it had been supposed that the substitution of the modern rifle for the old "Brown Bess" had

given to musketry so much power over artillery, as to present a most formidable obstacle to the working of guns in the field; and attention was earnestly directed to the question of increasing the range of cannon. A corresponding improvement was immediately afterwards made in artillery itself; and one gentleman in particular, the present Sir William Armstrong, produced a gun which seemed perfectly wonderful in the extent of its range and the precision of its aim. He (the Earl of Hardwicke) remembered the astonishment with which the first intelligence of Sir William Armstrong's invention had been received by the Government of which he (the Earl of Hardwicke) was a member. They immediately entered into negotiations with that gentleman for the purpose of obtaining the services of the inventor in the production and perfecting of the weapon. Those negotiations terminated in a manner which was considered most honour

able to Sir William Armstrong, who entered the public service as the head of the facture of our artillery. His noble Friend, department which presided over the manuwho was then at the head of the Government (the Earl of Derby), and his noble Friend who was Secretary for War (General Peel), acted with great care and deliberation in conducting their negotiations with Sir William Armstrong, and in providing

for the mode in which their views were to be carried into effect. They arranged that the manufacture of the new arm was to be confined to field pieces; and he believed that Sir William Armstrong's field piece was a very valuable weapon. His plan was so to confine the projectile as to give it a much greater range and much greater precision. His guns and his shells were constructed on a new principle, and he had undoubtedly produced a most beautiful weapon. But there started up almost at the same time an opponent to his guns, in the shape of iron-plated ships; and it appeared from experiment, that his artillery was ineffective against such vessels, and it was also found that the old 68-pounder was the best weapon that could be employed with any chance of smashing in their plates. Then appeared before the public another inventor, who produced a gun and projectile upon a principle totally different from the invention of Sir William Armstrong. He did not think the Government had done justice either to themselves or this inventor (Mr. Whitworth) in the course they had pursued towards that gentleman;

and it was not unnatural that it should into fragments. Having stated these facts, be so, while they had at the head of their he asked why they were not investiestablishment the inventor of the Armstrong gated? They had here a distinguished gun, and when a sum of, he believed, inventor who had performed everything he £2,500,000 had been expended upon the had promised, or if he had failed in any construction of artillery upon his principle. instance, it was because he had to work These guns, too, which were useless against with one of the old cast iron guns rifled iron-plated ships, had, he believed, been for the purpose of the experiment by himsupplied to the navy as well as to the army. self. And when he saw the condition of Mr. Whitworth, who had been well known our ships, that they were not armed with since 1855 as an inventor of artillery, and guns that could effect anything against ironwho since 1857 had been under the neces- plates, he was justified in asking for insity of protecting his inventions by patents, formation on the subject. He believed that had found it impossible to get his experi- the Armstrong gun was inapplicable to sea ments carried out as he desired; but he service, and to the sort of firing that was had been permitted to make certain ex- required in action, for the machinery was periments, and he had in no instance failed too delicate-the vent-piece was so perto show that he could penetrate iron-plated fectly fitted for the purpose of preventing ships not only with shot but with shell; and the escape of the gases-that the guns thus by his invention the iron-plated ships had almost invariably been useless for became as vulnerable as the old wooden rapid firing after two or three discharges. vessels had been. That fact alone ought Under these circumstances he had to put to have earned for Mr. Whitworth a full the question to his noble Friend opposite inquiry on the part of the Government; (Earl de Grey), because he thought it was and we might thus have been relieved from time that the talents of inventors like Mr. an enormous item in our recent expendi- Whitworth should be taken up seriously ture. Experiments had been made with by the country, and the sooner such a gun Mr. Whitworth's gun against the Trusty, as that gentleman had shown he could which was one of the fleet of iron-plated make was brought into use the better. vessels constructed for the defence of our The question he (the Earl of Hardwicke) harbours, and by those experiments the had to ask was, Whether Her Majesty's power of the gun to penetrate such a ship ships were supplied with any guns or prohad been fully established. Sir William jectiles that could at once penetrate a ship's Armstrong's gun could not penetrate her side armed with plates 4 inches thick of sides, whereas Mr. Whitworth's shot went iron? right through the hull, making a clean hole THE DUKE OF SOMERSET said, that as though it had been punched. Since as his noble Friend's question immediately then experiments had been made at Shoe- related to the navy, it might be more conburyness, when Mr. Whitworth took down venient that he should reply to it, having a gun, the results of which were marvellous, from the first been acquainted with and for every discharge sent the shot-the taken part in these experiments. When 70-pound shot as well as the 12-pound the present Government came into office, through the target. Up to this time, he in 1859, they found a record in the de(the Earl of Hardwicke) had been speak-partment strongly approving and praising ing of solid projectiles; but he would the gun of Sir William Armstrong, and sevenow turn to what was still more astound-ral of his 40-pounders and 70-pounders had ing-he meant the shells. Sir William been ordered to be made. He was very Armstrong, in 1862, at Sheffield, stated anxious, and the same anxiety had been that shells had failed against iron-plated expressed in both Houses of Parliament, ships, and that neither 68-pounders nor that the navy should be supplied with a 100 pounders, with solid round or conical rifled gun; he therefore communicated with shots, could be effective against them. The the late Lord Herbert on the subject. A experiments against the Trusty were made 70-pounder gun was sent to them in Noin May, 1860, and therefore he (the Earl vember, 1859. It was sent to sea under of Hardwicke) assumed that in those ex- charge of Sir William Wiseman, who was periments no shells were fired. Subse- to report upon its efficiency. It was put quently, however, Mr. Whitworth's shells on board a vessel called the Wrangler, and passed through the iron target as though the persons sent to watch its performance they had been so much paper, and explod-reported on their return from a week's ed, blowing the whole of the internal lining cruise, that, in point of power, accuracy,

1

to have a fair trial of Mr. Whitworth's gun, and accordingly more than a year ago a Committee was appointed, and Mr. Whitworth expressed himself satisfied with the members of that Committee. They were to report on the comparative merits of the Whitworth and of the Armstrong guns. Although Mr. Whitworth expressed himself particularly satisfied with the Com

and, in short, every quality of a gun, the Mr. Whitworth. That gentleman's propopiece appeared to them to be excellent.sition was, that if he could get the homoThis gun, though called a 70-pounder, had geneous metal he could make the gun. He been provided by Sir William Armstrong (the Duke of Somerset) was most anxious with projectiles weighing 100 lbs., which had been fired with perfect safety. Accordingly, a certain number of very similar guns, which were to be 110-pounders, were ordered. In the meantime it was true, as the noble Earl had stated, that the question of armour-plate arose; and it was found when tried at Shoeburyness, that the gun of which the accuracy and power against wooden ships was tremendous had not suf-mittee that was chosen, he had never proficient power against iron plates. Neither the 68-pounder nor the 110-pounder could penetrate the iron plates. If anything, the 68-pounder struck the heavier blow. He then saw Mr. Whitworth, who said to him that he could produce a gun and projectile that should penetrate the iron plates. The projectile, he said, must be of a very peculiar manufacture, but it could be done. He accordingly communicated with Lord Herbert, who said he was most anxious to try the experiment. They went down the river to the Nore, and had the Trusty anchored 200 yards off. Mr. Whitworth was present. The gun was fired, and undoubtedly Mr. Whitworth's bolts went right into the vessel, two shots going clean through the armour plate and the side of the vessel, and had they gone on with two or three shots more they would have sunk the vessel. He proposed to Lord Herbert that they should buy that gun in order that further experiments might be tried. They paid Mr. Whitworth a large sum for it, and they continued to try various other experiments. The misfortune was that in some of their trials the gun was found to have a flaw, and eventually it burst. Still he was in hopes that they should have some more guns supplied. They frequently tried to obtain other guns from Mr. Whitworth. He could assure the noble Earl, so far from favouring any one manufacturer-Sir William Armstrong or any one else they were only anxious to get a gun that would answer for the navy. Rather more than a year ago he had further communication with Mr. Whitworth, who said that he could produce a gun, but the difficulty was as to the material, to get homogeneous metal; for the gun used at Shoeburyness was not made by Mr. Whitworth but at the Royal factory at Woolwich, on the Armstrong plan of using coiled metal, it being found impossible to make it of homogeneous metal, as was required by

duced the gun, and the Committee appointed to report on the experiments had not been able to meet because they had no gun to report on. He admitted that Mr. Whitworth's invention was very clever, and he had no favour for one inventor over another. All he wanted was a good gun, and if Mr. Whitworth offered one it should be tried. In the various trials of guns and of projectiles it has been proved that the power of penetrating iron-plates depends in great measure on the hardness of the projectile, for no sooner had they got a hardened projectile than not only Mr. Whitworth's but Sir William Armstrong's guns sent both shot and shell through the iron plates. Flat-headed answered no better than pointed projectiles, and the Iron-plate Committee had not reported that the flat-head to the shot was of the slightest importance to the projectile. They were still left in a great difficulty as regarded the navy, for although they had experimental 300-pounder and 150pounder guns, which would send projectiles through iron plates, they had no good broadside guns for the navy. He was anxious, therefore, to go further, and about a year ago he communicated with his noble Friend at the head of the War Department, and with his concurrence sent for Sir William Armstrong, and told him that while they were going on with their experiments and trying various schemes for rifling, which might occupy their attention for months, and it might be for years, the Admiralty would never get a gun; that they really wanted a plain gun in the meantime for the use of the navy, which they might charge with from 25 lb. to 30lb. of powder-a gun of about six tons weight. Sir William Armstrong said that that could easily be furnished. Accordingly that gun was produced in September or October last, and the results were very satisfactory.

The

was now in a state of transition. Every day they would see new experiments with guns and projectiles. What they wanted was a projectile that would go through iron plates at a reasonable cost. There were many qualities of iron, but they found that

plate satisfactorily. There was little doubt that in a short time they would be able to send spherical projectiles through ironplated ships. But when the noble Earl said that wooden ships would therefore be as good as iron ones, he could not agree with him. He was afraid, that whatever they might do, they must still keep to iron-plated vessels; because, although shots might pass through them, yet the inevitable destruction of wooden ships by shells would be such that warfare by such ships against ironclads properly armed would be out of the question. Therefore,

practice made at from 1,000 to 1,200 yards was most accurate. At 2,600 yards the practice was still good, although inferior to that made by the rifled 110pounder. As compared with the 68pounder the interval between the rounds was only 15 seconds greater; the concus-only the very best steel would pierce a sion between the decks did not appear to be objectionable; they found no difficulty in training the gun, and when tried in a gunboat it was as easily controlled as the 68-pounder. The gun was considered superior for service against iron-plated ships to any gun they had. They had a report from the gunnery ship that the smooth-bore 100-pounder, with a charge of 25 lb. of powder, penetrated through and through a 5 inch iron plate with round shot at 200 yards. That showed, that after all the talk about punch-headed shot, what they wanted was a good, hard, solid shot that would shatter iron to splin-while they were increasing the force of ters and go through the planking inside. The result, as far as it went, was perfectly satisfactory in regard to the broadside gun. A number of these guns had been ordered, and some of them would be delivered in a very few weeks. As there was no complexity in their construction, no breach-loading or rifling, they could be made very fast. At the same time that was not all that they wanted. They required a rifled gun of about the same weight, and this gun is also now made and ready for trial. When they got that they would see whether they gained any advantage by the rifled gun. One advantage they must lose was, that they must have a lower calibre for the elongated shot, and, instead of having a 9-inch bore, they would have one of about 7 inches. They had now get two guns of about the same weight, one smooth bore and one rifled, and after a trial of these two guns it will THE EARL OF HARDWICKE, in reply, be ascertained which is fitted for a broad-said, he thought that what had fallen from side gun. The greater nicety in the pro- the noble Duke had admitted all that he jectiles used for the rifled gun caused (the Earl of Hardwicke) had stated in his some delay; but he hoped in a few weeks opening remarks. It really appeared that to be able to give the House more Mr. Whitworth had long since succeeded precise details as to these experiments. in doing all that the noble Duke was about The noble Lord would see that although to do with his gun. In Mr. Whitworth the guns with which the navy was pro- they had a man who could produce a weavided were no more than the 68-pounder pon and a projectile to penetrate a 4 in. and the 110-pounder of Sir William Arm- iron plate, and though they saw the effect strong, yet that they were in the way of of his shot and shell, the Government demaking a gun which would answer broad-clined to employ him. The noble Duko side purposes, and also of getting a gun had himself turned inventor, and found a with rifling. He thought he had now ex-smooth-bore gun which sent a spherical plained the reasons for the slow progress in shot through an iron-plate. But Mr. Whitobtaining guns. The truth was that the worth's projectile was one of a most wonwhole question of the manufacture of ironderful description, and with a raking broad

their guns, they must also increase the strength of their ship's sides. The last specimen of a ship's side which they had was very considerably stronger than those they had before; and he hoped that the vessels so constructed would be able to go to sea, and keep the sea in all weathers. He thought, then, that they had made all the progress in their power. He was sure that no pains had been spared to do so. The subject was naturally an interesting one, and no one could take it up without desiring to see the progress made in it. Many highly intelligent minds were engaged upon it, and were continually sending in new inventions; and although the Government were so overrun with new projects that if they attended to them all endless delay would ensue, they, nevertheless, desired not to overlook any valuable practical improvement.