he and his Colleagues entertained the high-in the efficiency of their regiments would est respect for the Yeomanry force, and naturally prefer that they should be called had the greatest confidence in its efficiency out. But he would remind the House that and utility; in fact, if required to give a this was not the first time that that meadescription of that distinguished volunteer sure had been taken. On two former ocforce, and especially of the officers who casions, the Yeomanry had not been called had the honour of commanding it, he out, and he was bound to say that, from thought he could do so in a more flatter- the Reports of the Inspectors in the subseing manner than the hon. and gallant quent years, it was impossible to find that Member for Beverley had done when he the regiments had suffered in any material spoke of those officers as meeting together degree in their efficiency. Therefore, the to protest against the reforms that a Com- passage which had been read to the House mittee which the hon. and gallant Gen- from the circular that had been referred to tleman himself had most emphatically was not conceived in any ironical spirit. praised and recommended to the Govern- The efficiency of the Yeomanry regiments ment. The hon. and gallant Member was admitted; and although it might to had represented the Yeomanry officers as some extent be impaired by their not being placing such a pressure upon the Chan- called out this year, yet experience showed cellor of the Exchequer as to compel that it would not sustain any serious detrihim "to disgorge the two half-crowns ment. He was unwilling to follow the hon. which he had earned by cutting down their and gallant Gentleman into the observapay to 7s. The hon. and gallant Member, tions he had made, from which it might however, did not tell the House that that almost be inferred that an invidious distincreduction of pay was made by the recom- tion was intended to be drawn between the mendation of the Committee which he had treatment of the Volunteers and Yeomanry. so much lauded. The hon. and gallant He thought it would be unfortunate if such Gentleman and the hon. Member who fol- invidious comparisons were made in that lowed him had made a very ingenious use House. The organization of the two forces of the Report which they had quoted. The was quite different. Even this year, when no hon. and gallant Gentleman had dwelt on sum was taken for calling out the Yeomanthe concluding paragraphs - praising, and ry, they were spending per man a considerjustly, the efficiency of the Yeomanry corps; ably larger sum of money on the Yeomanry but he omitted to cite the passage in which force than on the Volunteers. He could an opinion was expressed, that the sum of not, therefore, think that any useful object £1 10s. a year was enough to support the could be served by raising invidious comforce in an efficient state. The officers, parisons between them. He was quite cerhowever, protested against that, and by tain none was intended to be made by the bringing pressure to bear upon the Govern- Government; and he could only repeat that ment, got the sum increased to £2. Then they were fully persuaded of the efficiency the hon. and gallant Member read the pa- of the body, and had no intention to disragraph in which the Committee state that credit them in any way whatever. The they did not think the period of permanent reduction that would be proposed had been drill could be diminished with advantage. dictated solely by motives of economy. But the Committee were appointed to con- They were obliged to cut down where they sider certain definite questions, and among were unwilling to reduce, and they hoped the those questions was the present system of sum proposed would be saved without matetraining for six consecutive days, exclusive rially diminishing the efficiency of the force. of market day, as compared with fewer days GENERAL PEEL: The noble Marquess of permanent duty and a larger amount of has borne ample and willing testimony to troop drill. The Committee considered the efficiency of the Yeomanry force, that that subject, and arrived very properly at he has cut from under his feet the ground the conclusion that permanent duty was of his own argument. Of all pitiful, pennymore beneficial to the force than an increa-wise-and-pound-foolish economy, this prosed number of days of exercise. But they were never asked to give an opinion whether it would ever be advisable, under any circumstances, not to call out the Yeomanry for permanent duty at all. Of course, he did not say that it would add to its efficiency not to call it out. Officers interested posal is the most extraordinary. If you have made up your mind that the Yeomanry are of no use, why not say so? But you call upon us to vote £41,000 for the permanent staff of the Yeomanry, and yet refuse the trifling sum requisite for the six days' training on permanent duty. Is it possible that the noble Marquess, with the Report of the Committee appointed by Lord Herbert for the purpose of inquiring what is essential to keep the Yeomanry effective, can be so unmindful of its directions? I hope the noble Marquess will at once agree to what is so perfectly evident, and what nobody can deny-namely, that the discontinuance even for one year of the six days' training on permanent duty would be detrimental to the efficiency of the force; that it is contrary to the recom mendations of the Committee; and, thirdly, that it would be an inexpedient thing to do. I am perfectly certain if the noble Marquess will look through the Estimates he will be quite able to effect other reductions sufficient to make up the amount. VISCOUNT PALMERSTON: I hope the House will not be led away by the very enthusiastic speech of the right hon. and gallant Gentleman who has just sat down. We are, as my noble Friend stated, fully sensible of the great value of the Yeomanry force and of their efficiency, and what we now propose does not either imply any want of appreciation of their merits, or, on the other hand, entail any sensible diminution of their efficiency. It is not the first time that the motive of economy with regard to the service of a particular year has prevailed, and the calling out of the Yeomanry has been omitted. There have been many years in which the Yeomanry have not been permanently embodied. I think it is a great disparagement of the Yeomanry not to believe that the efficiency of the force will remain unaffected, although for the space of one year six days' training on permanent duty may be discontinued. They have not been called out for two successive years; but it has often happened that for one year they have not been called out. The unfortunate war in New Zealand has entailed very large expenses incidental to the year, and which, we hope, will not occur in any future year. Looking over the various heads of charge connected with our military arrangements, we have thought the reduction proposed might fairly be made without any diminution of the efficiency of this valuable part of our domestic force. I hope, therefore, the House will not agree to the Motion of the hon. and gallant Member, and diminish by the amount of £46,000 that saving which we think the House may, with every regard for the safety of the country, wisely agree to. SIR WILLIAM MILES said, he should not have been surprised if the noble Lord had given a silent Vote on this occasion; but he certainly was surprised at what he now said. When the noble Lord presided at the Home Office, and a deputation of Yeomanry Officers waited upon him, including the Marquess of Ailesbury and Lord Eversley, he (Sir William Miles) was also present. The noble Lord received them most courteously, and after hearing the whole of their case, in which they set forth the necessity of the Yeomanry being called out for a longer period, the noble Lord, as it seemed to him (Sir William Miles), was so convinced by the arguments the deputation addressed to him, that he was disposed to extend the period, not only to eight, but to ten days; and if his right hon. Friend (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had not come to the rescue-for the order had been given and disseminated from the Home Office-the alteration would probably have been made. THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER said, he had nothing at all to do with it. SIR WILLIAM MILES said, he had thought it probable that the right hon. Gentleman had a hand in it. After this opinion of the noble Lord while at the Home Office, he (Sir William Miles) was surprised to hear the noble Lord say that the efficiency of the Yeomanry could be as well kept up if their calling out were intermitted for a year. His regiment was not called out in 1860, and the result was, that when they were inspected in the following year, every fifth man was found to be a recruit. He could not conceive why this change should be called for. If they did not want the Yeomanry, let them dismiss them, but let them not be dealt with on such a penny-wise-pound-foolish principle. Let the Government tell them, 66 We want you," or "We do not want you;" but let not the position of the commanding officer be rendered so embarrassing, and let not the proffer of services so valuable be treated in such a manner. Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question." 157: Majority 1. The House divided :-Ayes 158; Noes REPORT OF THE INSPECTORS OF CON STABULARY-POLICE SPY SYSTEM. OBSERVATIONS. QUESTION. MR. ROEBUCK: Sir, I wish to call the attention of the House to a Report which ment coln, Captain Bicknell, the Chief Constable for "During my inspection in the county of Linthat large and important county, brought under my notice a system which he had discovered of prirate communication between individuals or sociebetter explain than by entering the letter adties and members of the force, which I cannot dressed from Captain Bicknell to the county paper upon the subject "To the Editor of the Mercury. "Sir, "Chief Constable's Office, Lincoln, August 12th, 1863. has been made to the Home Secretary, and North Wales district, makes this stateand I wish to ask a question of the right hon. Gentleman respecting that Report. It will be in the recollection of every one that, within the last few days, a remarkable trial has taken place in France, which furnished us with a notion of what the police system is there; and, thereupon, the most influential journal of England, and probably of the world, published a strong article upon the effect of the spy system in France. At that trial it was seen that the spy system was employed to track men who were denounced as conThe police of this county are conspiring to commit a great crime, and the stantly receiving letters from private inquiry offices, seeking information as to the character, respy system was put into operation to pre-spectability, and money value of persons residing vent that crime and to bring those who in the towns and villages, generally of small contemplated it to justice. The article in traders, but sometimes of clergy and professional The Times newspaper spoke of that system men. Companies are formed for the professed in terms of reprobation, and it stated that object of conducting these inquiries, and the practice is becoming very prevalent. I think most certainly the people of England would not persons are little aware of the system of spybear such a system among them. I am ing that is going on, and that "strictly confidenvery much afraid that the people of Eng- tial" communications may be passing concerning land not only may, but actually do bear them which may be of serious injury to their prothe existence of a spy system of which they the offices in the "register of persons deemed unspects, and that their names may be inscribed at have but little idea. I take it that if a worthy of credit." The police of the counties and spy system were established in the country, boroughs are largely applied to by these offices, in places where the population is compara- and it is within my knowledge that, in some intively thinly scattered, all hopes of privacy and remuneration received. Such matters, unless would be at an end, and the pleasures of private life would be poisoned, embittered, and almost destroyed. It happens that we have established police all over England, and in London there are, as I learn from the Inspectors' Report, societies organized for the purpose of supplying information to inquisitive persons. The pretence is that of defending credit and preventing crime; but the result is, that the habit of inquisitiveness is propagated, and a desire for tittle-tattle is very much fostered. Everybody wishes to know everything about everybody else, and what "Mrs. Grundy may say is an important question in every family. But, as we know that in France the steps of men were dogged from hour to hour, by night and by day-that men could not go out or return home, could not dine or go to bed, without the police knowing it so in the present circumstances of England private life in the same way may be watched, and we shall be unable to stir without somebody following to report our actions. In order to make the House understand what I mean I will read a few lines from the Reports of the Inspectors of Constabulary in England, ordered to be printed on February 9th last. In his report, General Cartwright, the Inspector of Police in the Eastern Counties, Midland, VOL. CLXXIII. [THIRD SERIES.] stances, the information sought has been furnished, on criminal information, are, I conceive, beyond the province of the police; and it is to make known that I have prohibited any replies to such inquiries on the part of the constabulary of this county, and also to draw the attention of the police authorities generally to the subject, that I request the insertion of this letter in your widely circulated paper. I enclose you a specimen letter of inquiry, but not for publication. I am, &c., "PHILIP BICKNELL, Chief Constable of Lincolnshire."" Upon this General Cartwright makes some observations, which I will read to the House "Considering this is a most important commuthis system has been generally in force, and I nication, I have made a point of inquiring whether have to report, that in many counties and boroughs I find it to be of common practice. Feeling deeply how injurious such a system must be to the wellbeing of the force, I cannot too strongly impress upon you my firm belief that, unless it is at once suppressed, the support the force receives from the public will be greatly damaged, if not entirely withdrawn. According to the title of the Act, under which the force is established, it is stated to be for the more effectual prevention and maintenance of good order. The duties here are detection of crime, suppression of vagrancy, and so well defined that it must be clear to every one that any strictly confidential inquiries into private means and character between individuals or sodangerous transgressions of duty that can be imacieties and police officers, is one of the most gined. The efficiency of the force depends upon its popularity, which, if removed, is fatal to its + 2 Y 4 main support; as, according to its efficiency, it becomes popular, so according to its popularity it becomes efficient. In my circuit of inspection, wherever I have mentioned this subject to any of those in command of forces it has met with their immediate reprobation. This course of action may check the system referred to, but I consider it of such vital importance to the force, that I have thought it my duty to bring it under your immediate consideration." The chief consideration which presents itself to General Cartwright is very properly the efficiency of the police force; but it is right that this House should consider the welfare of the community. What I wish, therefore, to ask the right hon. Gentleman is, Whether his attention has been called to this very important communication; whether he has come to any resolution respecting the course pursued by the police in these cases; and whether he has issued any orders thereupon? a very few instances; and, attention having been called to the subject, I hope the notice taken of it by General Cartwright, and the steps adopted in consequence, will effectually prevent the continuance of the practice. THE CONTROLLER OF THE NAVY AND QUESTION. MR. FERRAND, pursuant to notice, rose to put Questions to the Secretary to the Admiralty, on the present Controller of the Navy having appeared in the uniform of his rank when Captain of the Steam Reserve at the Devonport Election in 1859, and taking an active part in its proceedings. Ten days ago the hon. Member for Sunderland (Mr. Lindsay) brought under the notice of the House the Report of the Royal Commissioners appointed in the year 1861, to inquire into the DockOn that occasion I took the yards. SIR GEORGE GREY: No doubt the practice to which General Cartwright has called the attention of the Secretary of State, is a most objectionable one, and liberty of calling attention to what I the employment of the police in certain described as Whig tyranny and political parts of the country, not under the author-interference in Devonport on the part of ity of their officers, but by private the Admiralty by the late and present communications with private parties, in making these inquiries, is altogether foreign to the object for which the police force was established. As soon attention was called to this passage in General Cartwright's Report, I directed a circular to be addressed to the Chairmen of Quarter Sessions in counties, and to the Chairmen of Watch Committees in boroughs possessing a separate police force, and to the police authorities in Scotland. This is the form addressed to the Chair men of Watch Committees― as my Whitehall, Feb. 3. "Sir, I am directed by Secretary Sir George Grey to request that you will call the attention of the Watch Committee to the inclosed extract from the last Report of Lieutenant General Cartwright, one of Her Majesty's Inspectors of Constabulary, respecting a system of private communication which appears to be in operation between individuals or societies and members of the constabulary force; and I am to request that inquiries may be made upon this subject with reference to the police of your borough, and that special instructions may be given to prevent a practice which is open to very serious objection. I am, Sir, your obedient servant, "H. A. BRUCE, "The Chairman of the Watch Committee." I have received a great many letters in answer to this circular, and, although some replies are still wanting, I am happy to say that the general result shows that the practice does not exist except in only Controller of the Navy. The charges I made were clear and distinct-there could be no mistake about them — and I made them in the presence of the Secretary and junior Lord of the Admiralty. Neither of those honourable officials thought it their duty to contradict any statement I made on that occasion. They both held their peace, and from that time to this day the charges that I made have never been contradicted. I was astonished at the silence of the Secretary of the Admiralty and of the junior Lord; and, for the purpose of obtaining from them some distinct confirmation or denial of the statement which I made, I placed on the paper of the House a notice intimating my intention to put some Questions to the Secretary of the Admiralty. After I had placed that notice on the paper, I was told by an hon. and gallant Friend of mine (Sir John Hay) that he intended to read a denial to the House of some of the statements which I had made. That being the case, instead of putting the Questions I at first intended, I thought it necessary to alter my notice, and to intimate my intention, upon the Question of going into Supply, of asking the indulgence of the House whilst submitting certain questions, and of making a further statement in reference to that intended to be made by my hon. and gallant Friend. Since I received that information The Report says in another place "For the purpose of securing a proper system of promotions in the dockyards, it may, perhaps, be fairly required that, if the system under which these promotions are now again regulated should shall be laid before Parliament, as soon as an opbe hereafter altered or modified, the information portunity may be afforded for such communication." from my hon. and gallant Friend, I have enforced, if the Board of Admiralty honestly perlooked into the proceedings which have severe in its maintenance; and if, having aptaken place in what I may call the perse-them vigilantly to watch those whose fair co-operapointed fit persons as superintendents, they direct cution of my late respected friend Mr. tion can insure justice to candidates for promoAugustus Stafford, and I am greatly sur-tion." prized to find that the men who were the chief persecutors of that noble hearted Englishman who had brought distinct charges against him of using his office for the purpose of bringing his political influence to bear upon the dockyard boroughs -have themselves actually, and to a far more guilty extent than Mr. Augustus Stafford, exercised their political influence in those boroughs. On the 21st of April, 1852, Sir Baldwin Walker-who was then Surveyor of the Navy, and I may say the chief persecutor of my late hon. Friend Mr. Stafford-addressed a letter to the then Secretary of the Admiralty, for the purpose of forwarding his resignation to the Board of Admiralty. I will read an extract from that letter, which was dated the 21st of April, 1852 "I must beg to tender to their Lordships my resignation, for I can no longer continue to hold the appointment of Surveyor of the Navy with such an imputation on my character, as that of allowing political motives to influence my admission to the Board." Nothing further was heard in regard to The Report strongly censured Mr. Stafford for interfering with the duties of Sir Baldwin Walker, in whose hands the promotions in the yards then rested, on the recommendation of the superintendents. In this Report the present Duke of Somerset declares distinctly that no Government officer was to interfere in the elections, and that the Board of Admiralty should not interfere between the superintendents and the Secretary of the Navy. In 1855 the right hon. Baronet the present Secretary of the India Board (Sir Charles Wood) became First Lord of the Admiralty; and to prevent the slightest mistake taking place afterwards on this important question, he issued an order or regulation, which ought to be as binding on officers of the navy as are the Rules of this House upon its Members. When, on a former occasion, the right hon. Gentleman was explaining to the House what he had done in refer ence to the patronage in the dockyards, he said given over to the superintendents, and since then the Board of Admiralty have had nothing to do with promotion in the employment of the yards." The noble Lord the Secretary to the Ad "When I was First Lord the patronage was inside or outside of this House. I believe that in consequence of some communications which had taken place between the Lords of the Admiralty, Mr. Augustus Stafford, and Sir Baldwin Walker, the latter gentleman was induced to withdraw his resignation. But on the 19th of April, 1853, Sir Benjamin Hall brought forward some distinct charges against Mr. Augustus Stafford, to support which Sir Baldwin Walker was the chief witness. On the 22nd of the same month a Com-miralty heard that statement, and he did mittee was appointed to inquire into dockyard appointments and promotions. This Committee consisted of five Members of this House, and Lord Seymour, now the Duke of Somerset, was the Chairman. I hold in my hand some short extracts from the Report of that Committee. The Committee report that In House what the facts really were. "In 1849, Sir Francis Baring, being then First Lord of the Admiralty, introduced an additional precaution for the exclusion of political influence from the administration of the dockyards, by writing himself to the superintendents and principal officers whom he appointed, asking them as officers and gentlemen to give him an assurance that they would not interfere in the politics of the place. An important system of advancement must be productive of industry, and therefore of economy; such a system your Committee believe may be therefore no appointments could be made |