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not in favor of anything or opposed to any By the Chairman: Q. When did you hear thing particularly. I was simply in favor of him say that? A. I heard him say that in one having a government there ; that was all I or two of his speeches. I do not recollect where. wanted. I did not pretend to give my judgment By Mr. Boutwell : Q. Have you heard him as to what it should be. I was perfectly willing make a remark kindred to that elsewhere? A. to leave that to the civil department. I asked Yes; I have heard him say that, aside from his no person what I should do in my duties ; I speeches, in conversation. I cannot say just was willing to take all the respongibilities; and when. It was probably about that same time. | I did not want to give my views as to what the Q. Have you heard him, at any time, make civil branch of the government should do any remark or suggestion concerning the legal

Q. Some of those governors were military ity of Congress with the southern members exofficers and held rank in the army? A. That cluded? A. He alluded to that subject frequently was during the rebellion. Mr. Johnson was on his tour to Chicago and back last summer. military governor in Tennessee and General His speeches were generally reported with conHamilton in Texas. I do not recollect that there siderable accuracy. I cannot recollect what he were any other military governors ; the others said, except in general terms; but I read his were provisional governors. I did not care speeches at the time, and they were reported whether they were called provisional or military with considerable accuracy. governors. I looked upon them as equally pro- Q. Did you hear him say anything in private visional.

on that subject, either during that trip or at any By Mr. Thomas: Q. You have stated your other time? A. I do not recollect specially. opinion as to the rights and privileges of Gen- Q. Did you at any time hear him make any eral Lee and his soldiers ; did you mean that to remark concerning the executive department of include any political rights ? A. I have ex- the government? A. No. I never heard him plained that I did not.

allude to that. Q. Was there any difference of opinion on that Q. Did you ever hear him make any remark point between yourself and President Johnson at looking to any controversy between Congress any time? A. On that point there was no differ- and the Executive ? A. I think not. ence of opinion; but there was as to whether By Mr. Marshall : Q. I understand you to the parole gave them any privileges or rights. say that you were very anxious, at the close of

By Mr. Eldridge: Q. He claiming that it did the war, that civil governments should be estabnot, and you claiming that it did ? A. He lished in some form as speedily as possible, and claiming that the time must come when they that you so advised the President? A.'I so could be tried and punished, and I claiming that stated frequently in his presence. that time could not come except by a violation Q. But that you advised no particular form of their parole. I claimed that I gave them no or mode of proceeding? A. I did not. political privileges, but that I had a right, as Q. Were you present when this North Caromilitary commander, to arrange terms of sur. lina proclamation was read in the cabinet ? A. render which should protect the lives of those I would not be certain, but my recollection is prisoners. I believe it is conceded by every that the first time I heard it read was in the body that I had that right. I know that Mr. presence only of the President, the Secretary of Lincoln conceded it at the time.

War, and myself. By Mr. Boutwell: Q. How recently has the Q. Did you give your assent to that plan? President expressed to you the opinion that A. I did not dissent from it. That is just in General Lee, or others who had the benefit of accordance with what I have stated. It was a the parole, ought to be tried and punished ? | civil matter, and, although I was anxious to have A. Not since about two years ago.

something done, I did not intend to dictate any Q. Have you at any time heard the President plan. I do not think I said anything about it, make any remark in reference to admission of or expressed any opinion about'it at that time. members of Congress from the rebel States into I looked upon it simply as a temporary measeither house? A. I cannot say positively what ure, to establish a sort of government, until ConI have heard him say on that subject I have gress should meet and settle the whole question, heard him say as much, perhaps, in his published that it did not make much difference how it was speeches last summer, as I ever heard him say and done, so there was a form of government at all upon that subject. I have heard him say there. -and I think I have heard him say it twice in Q. Were you present that time by invitation his speeches -- that if the North carried the of the President or the Secretary of War? A. elections by members enough to give them, with I must have been. the southern members, a majority, why would Q. Were you not invited for the purpose of they not be the Congress of the United States ? I getting your views as to whether it was à judiI have heard him say that several times. cious plan to be adopted for the time? A. I

By Mr. Williams: Q. When you say "the suppose I was free to express my views. I supNorth,” you mean the democratic party of the pose the object was, perhaps, that I might ex. North, or, in other words, the party favoring press my views if I could suggest any change. his policy? A. I mean if the North carried Q. Were you at the time asked your views in enough members in favor of the admission of the reference to it? A. I do not think I was. I South. I did not hear him say that he would think it was merely read over. recognize them as the Congress. I merely heard Q. You think you neither assented nor dis. him ask the question, “why would they not be sented ? A. I know that if I had been asked the Congress ?"

I the question I would have assented to that os

almost anything else that would have given By Mr. Churchill : Q.What paper was that? stable government there.

A. The North Carolina proclamation. a la reference to the amnesty proclamation, By Mr. Boatwell: You understood that I wish to know whether you ever gave your Mr. Lincoln's plan was temporary, to be either opinion to the President as to whether it was confirmed or a new government set up by Con. too liberal or not liberal enough in its clauses? gress? A. Yes; and I understood Mr. JohnA. I think I have answered that question pretty son's to be so too. fully. When the proclamation was published, 1 By Mr. Williams: Q. Was there anything told the President that there were two points on said on that subject, or was that your inference? which I disagreed with him—that is, as to ex. | A. That was my inference. cluding volunteer generals, and as to the $20,000 Q. You never heard the President say the clause. I do not say anything as to whether plan was to be temporary? A. No; but I was the rest of it was too liberal or too stringent satisfied that everybody looked on it as simply I can state what I thought about it, but not temporary until Congress met. what I said about it.

Q. You stated that the North Carolina proQ. I wish to know whether, at or about the clamation was a continuation of the project time of the war being ended, yon advised the submitted by Mr. Lincoln. I wish to inquire President that it was, in your judgment, best to of you whether you ever compared them to asextend a liberal policy towards the people of the certain whether they were the same or not? South, and to restore as speedily as possible the A. No, sir; I never compared them. I took fraternal relations which existed prior to the them to be the very same papers. The papers war between the two sections? A. I know that were substantially the same, if not the very same. immediately after the close of the rebellion there was a very fine feeling manifested in the South,

BECALLED AND EXAMINED, JULY 20, 1867. and I thought we ought to take advantage of it as soon as possible; but since that there has By Mr. Boutwell: Q. Do you recollect hav.' been an evident change there. I may have ex ing an interview with the President in company pressed my views to the President.

with General Hillyer, on the return of General Q. What is your recollection in reference to Hillyer from the South ? A. Since my attention that? A. I may have done so, and it is proba- was called to it I do. I did not remember it ble that I did; I do not recollect particularly. when I gave my testimony the last day here. I know that I conversed with the President Q. What is your recollection of what transvery frequently. I do not suppose that there pired and was said at that interview ? A. My were any persons engaged in that consultation recollection is that General Hillyer called to exwho thought of what was being done at that plain to the President what he had seen in the time as being lasting any longer than until South, and what he had heard of the views and Congress would meet and either ratify that or opinions of the people there; and that what he establish some other form of government. I had seen was an acquiescence on the part of the know it never crossed my mind that what was southern people, and favorable to peace, bar. being done was anything more than temporary. mony, and good will. That was said in general

By Mr. Churchill: Q. You understood that terms, but the language I do not remember. to be the view of the President? A. I under- Q. Do you recollect whether, at that interstood that to be the view of the President and view, there was any expression by the President of everybody else. I did not know of any dif- as to any political policy ? A. No, sir, I do not; ference of opinion on that subject.

I remember General Hillyer said something of Q. Did you understand that to be his view as having been invited to make a speech in New other proclamations appeared from time to time? | York, or some place, I do not remember where, A. I cannot say as to that. It would seem that and that he should do so, and send me a copy of he was very anxious to have Congress ratify his his speech. I am very sure that he mentioned own views.

that in the presence of the President. What he By Mr. Woodbridge: Q. I understood you said in that speech I do not remember now, but to say that Mr. Lincoln, prior to his assassina- I presume the speech could be procured. I retion, had inaugurated a policy intended to re member that General Hillyer gave the substance store those governments ? A. Yes, sir.

of what leading men said to him in the South. Q. You were present when the subject was He particularly mentioned Judge Hale, of Alabefore the cabinet? A. I was present, I think, bama. He said that Judge Hale very candidly twice before the assassination of Mr. Lincoln, said that when they went into the rebellion they when a plan was read.

took their lives, property, &c., in their hands, Q. I want to know whether the plan adopted and that when they were defeated, they should by Mr. Johnson was substantially the plan accept such conditions as the government chose which had been inaugurated by Mr. Lincoln as to give; and that they claim now that what the basis for his future action ? A. Yes, sir, they did they did in good faith, and would not substantially. I do not know but that it was take it back again. Judge Hale claimed no verbatim the same.

right whatever after the failure of the rebellion, Q. I suppose the very paper of Mr. Lincoln except such as was granted to them. That was was the one acted on ? A. I should think so. the point he made. The conversation was made I think that the very paper which I heard read up considerably of instances of that sort. I twice while Mr. Lincoln was President was the recollect his mentioning meeting a special party one which was carried right through.

Tin Mobile, and what occurred there.

RICHMOND, VIRGINIA, June 13, 1865.

WASHINGTON, D. C., March 12, 1866. LEE, GENERAL R. E.--For benefits, and full re- PICKETT, GENERAL GEORGE E.-Presents his

storation of all rights and privileges extended tory of his case, refers to surrender and agreeto those included in amnesty proclamation of ment of April 9, 1865, and asks for protection the President of 29th May, 1865.


March 16, 1866. Respectfully forwarded through the Secretary Respectfully forwarded to his excellency the of War to the President, with earnest recom- President of the United States, with the recom. mendation that the application of General Rob- mendation that clemency be extended in this ert E. Lee for amnesty and pardon may be case, or assurance given that no trial will take granted him.

place for the offence charged against George E. The oath of allegiance, required by recent Pickett. order of the President to accompany applica. During the rebellion belligerent rights were tion, does not accompany this, for the reason, acknowledged to the enemies of our country, as I am informed by General Ord, the order re- and it is clear to me that the parole given by quiring it had not reached Richmond when this the armies, laying down their arms, protects was forwarded.

U.S. GRANT, them against punishment for acts lawful to any Lieutenant General. other belligerent. In this case, I know it is

claimed that the men tried and convicted for RICHMOND, VA., June 13, 1865. crime of desertion were Union men from North LEE, GENERAL ROBERT E.-Understanding that Carolina who had found refuge within our lines

he and other officers are to be indicted by land in our service. The punishment was a grand jury at Norfolk, Virginia, states his

hard one, but it was in time of war, and upon readiness to be brought to trial, but had sup- the enemy; they no doubt felt it necessary to posed the terms of his surrender protected retain by some power the service of every man him; therefore prays, &c.

within their reach. HEADQ'RS ARMIES OF THE UNITED STATES, General Pickett I know, personally, to be an

16th June, 1865. honorable man, but in this case his judgment In my opinion, the officers and men paroled prompted him to do what cannot well be susat Appomattox Court House, and since, upon the tained, though I do not see how good, either to bame terms given to Lee, cannot be tried for the friends of the deceased, or by fixing an examtreason so long as they observe the terms of ple for the future, can be secured by his trial now. their parole. This is my understanding. Good It would only open up the question whether faith as well as true policy dictates that we or not the government did not disregard its should observe the conditions of that conven- contract entered into to secure the surrender of tion. But faith on the part of the government, an armed enemy.

U. 8. GRANT, or a construction of that convention subjecting

Lieutenant General. officers to trial for treason, would produce a feeling of insecurity in the minds of all the paroled ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI, March 26, 1866. officers and men. If so disposed they might

BEALL, W. H. R.-Application for pardon. even regard such an infraction of terms by the

HEADQUARTERS ARMIES UNITED STATES, government as an entire release from all obliga

2d April, 1866. tions on their part. I will state, further, that the terms granted by p.

Respectfully submitted to his excellency the

by President, through the honorable Secretary of me met with the hearty approval of the Presi- w dent at the time, and of the people generally. I

| War, and recommended. U. S. GRANT,

Lieutenant General. The action of Judge Underwood in Norfolk has had an injurious effect, and I would ask

RECALLED AND EXAMINED, JULY 18, 1867. that he be ordered to quash all indictments

By Mr. Thomas : Q. Did the President profound against paroled prisoners of war, and to

pose, at any time, to use the military power for desist from further prosecution of them.

the adjustment of the controversy in Baltimore U.S. GRANT, Lieut. General.

between the police commissioners appointed by [Cipher.]

Governor Swann and those who claimed authorHEADQ'RS ARMIES OF THE UNITED STATES, ity independent of Governor Swann? A. I

WASHINGTON, May 6, 1865-1 P.M. understood that he wanted to use it, and I called : Major General HALLECK,

his attention to the law on the subject, which Richmond, Virginia.

changed his views and determination evidently. Since receipt of your despatch of 3d, I think I called his attention to the only circumstances it will be advisable to leave Hunter alone for the in which the military forces of the United States present.

can be called out to interfere in State matters, Although it would meet with opposition in the It was his intention to send troops there to North to allow Lee the benefit of amnesty, I enable Governor Swann, as he termed it, to enthink it would have the best possible effect to force his decision in the case of those police wards restoring good feeling and peace in the commissioners. South to have him come in. All the people Q. Did the President, on account of your except a few political leaders in the South will opinion, change that purpose ? A. I made a accept whatover he docs as right, and will be communication to him on the subject, which led guided to a great extent by his example. to the Attorney General giving an opinion as to

U.S. GRANT, Lieut. General. Ithe power to use the military forces of the United States to interfere in State affairs; and ment of it? A. Yes, sir. I sent General Canby that led to a change of what was intended to to Baltimore, and went there twice myself, and be done. After this whole question was settled had troops stop there on their way to the South, as to sending the military there, there were six Q. It was entirely within your control? A. companies of new troops organized in New Yes, sir. York harbor, which belonged to regiments By the Chairman: Q. They were solely for south of here, and I ordered them to their regi- the purpose of being used in the case of a riot? ments, and to stop at Fort McHenry on their A. Solely for that purpose. way down, in order to keep them there until By Mr. Marshall: Q. Merely as a police force ? after the election, with a view to have a force A. Yes, sir. there in case there was a bloody riot.

1 I desire to make the following explanation of Q. Do I understand you to say that the Pres- my evidence: On'examination of the record I ident changed his purpose in that respect before find there is more matter, in writing, from the the difficulty had been adjusted in Baltimore? President than, from memory, I thought there A. Yes, sir.

was. Also, that I have either misplaced or never Q. That was in accord with your opinion, en wrote objections which I made verbally to what dorsed by the Attorney General ? A. Yes, sir. was asked of the President by Governor Swann,

By Mr. Williams: Q. Have you a copy of the of Maryland, in the way of services of United letter addressed by you to the President? A. I States troops, and which the President seemed have a copy of everything official except con- desirous of giving. Governor Swann visited the versation.

President, to my knowledge, (how often I do not (Witness was directed to furnish the official know,) before the trial of the Baltimore police documents on the subject.)

commissioners, to get the promise of military By Mr. Thomas: Q. Did the President signify aid in case he should remove them. During the his wish concerning the army in writing or ver- trial, and before the promulgation of his find. bally? A. Verbally and in writing.

ings, he also visited the President for the same Q. Were you sent for formally? A. Yes, sir. purpose. At least once before the trial, and once I was sent for several times—twice, I think, during the progress of the trial of the police while Governor Swann was there in consultation commissioners, I was sent for to meet Governor with the President. Finding that the President Swann at the Executive mansion. Much was wanted to send the military to Baltimore, I ob- said by me on those occasions, but, as before jected to it.

stated, I have confused, in my evidence, what Q. Are you distinct in your recollection as to was verbal with what was written. when the President acquiesced in your views?! (The documents following are on pages 37, 38.) A. It was prior to the election, two or three days. When the matter was left entirely with General Grant on the Removal of General Shori. me, I ordered those troops down to join their regi

dan and Secretary Stanton. ments, and to halt at Fort McHenry until after 1.-PRESIDENT JOHNSON TO GENERAL GRANT. the election.

EXECUTIVE MANSION, Q. Was it before or after the arrest of the WASHINGTON, D. C., August 17, 1867. commissioners appointed by Governor Swann, DEAR SIR : Before you issue instructions to that the President withdrew his request to you carry into effect the enclosed order I would be to use the army in that controversy? A. I can- pleased to hear any suggestions you may deem not state precisely as to that. It was before I necessary respecting the assignments to which ordered the troops from New York. What took the order refers. Truly, yours, place was in conversation, until I found that

ANDREW JOHNSON. there was rather a determination to send troops General U. S. Grant, there, and then I communicated officially to the

Secretary of War ad interim. Secretary of War my objection to using troops in that way. That called out the opinion of the

2.-THE PRESIDENT'S ORDER. Attorney General, and it was then that what I

EXECUTIVE MANSION, proposed was acquiesced in. I thought this was

WASHINGTON, D. C., August 17, 1867. in writing, but do not find the paper.

Major General Geo. H. Thomas is hereby asBy Mr. Marshall: Q. The President seemed signed to the command of the fifth military dig. to think he had a right to send the army under

trict, created by the act of Congress passed on the circumstances ? ©A. Yes, sir; he seemed to the 2d day of March, 1867. think so.

Major General P. A. Sheridan is hereby as. Q. After you sent your written communica- sione

* I signed to the command of the department of tion, giving your views in reference to it, the the Missouri President then left the subject entirely in your Major General Winfield S. Hancock is hereb hands ? A. Yes, sir; he left it entirely in my assigned to the command of the department ou hands. I think that is in writing.

the Cumberland. (Witness was directed to furnish a copy of the The Secretary of War ad interim will give the communication.)

necessary instructions to carry this order into By Mr. Eldridge: Q. That was a formal with. I effect.

ANDREW JOHNSON. drawal of his first opinion ? A. Yes, sir. I think I was sent a copy of the Attorney Gen

3.-GENERAL GRANT TO PRESIDENT JOHNSON, eral's opinion as a sort of order in the matter,

HEADQ'RS ARMIES OF THE UNITED STATES, virtually leaving it to me.

WASHINGTON, D. C., August 17, 1867. Q. After that time you did have the manage- ! SIR : I am in receipt of your order of this date, directing the assignment of General G. H.1 5.-GENERAL GRANT TO PRESIDENT JOHNSONThomas to the command of the fifth military OFFICE U. S. MIL. TEL., WAR DEPARTMENT, district, General Sheridan to the department of

WASHINGTON, D. C., August 21, 1867. the Missouri, and General Hancock to the de- To General U. S. GRANT. partment of the Cumberland; also of your note General Thomas is absent in West Virginia, of this date, (enclosing these instructions,) say, and has probably not yet seen his orders. He ing: “Before you issue instructions to carry has been under medical treatment this summer into effect the enclosed order, I would be pleased for an affection of his liver, and it would be a to hear any suggestions you may deem necessary great risk for him to go South at this time. respecting the assignments to which the order


Surgeon U. S. A. and Med. Director, I am pleased to avail myself of this invitation

Department of the Cumberland. to urge, earnestly urge, urge in the name of a

Respectfully forwarded to the President for patriotic people who have sacrificed hundreds of nie information

eas of his information, and recommending a suspension thousands of loyal lives, and thousands of mil

of the order making change in military comlions of treasure to preserve the integrity and union of this country, that this order be not


U.S. GRANT, General. insisted on. It is unmistakably the expressed desired ? It certainly was the intention of the wish of the country that General Sheridan legislative branch of government to place cabishould not be removed from his present com net ministers beyond the power of executive mand.

removal, and it is pretty well understood that, This is a republic where the will of the people

so far as cabinet ministers are affected by the is the law of the land. I beg that their voice tenure-of-office bill," it was intended specially may be heard.

to protect the Secretary of War, whom the General Sheridan has performed his civil

country felt great confidence in. The meaning duties faithfully and intelligently. His removal of the law may be explained away by an astute will only be regarded as an effort to defeat the

lawyer, but common sense and the views of loyal laws of Congress. It will be interpreted by the

people will give to it the effect intended by its unreconstructed element in the South, those who framers. did all they could to break up this government On the subject of the removal of the very able by arms, and now wish to be the only element commander of the fifth military district, let me consulted as to the method of restoring order, I ask you to consider the effect it would have upon as a triumph. It will embolden them to re- the public. He is universally and deservedly newed opposition to the will of the loyal masses, beloved by the people who sustained this governbelieving that they have the Executive with ment throngh its trials and feared by those ühem.

who would still be enemies of the government. The services of General Thomas in battling | It fell to the lot of but few men to do as much for the Union entitle him to some consideration. I against an armed enemy as General Sheridan He has repeatedly entered his protest against did during the rebellion, and it is within the being assigned to either oft he five military dis- scope of the ability of but few in this or other tricts, and especially to being assigned to relieve

country to do what he has. His civil adminis. General Sheridan.

tration has given equal satisfaction. He has There are military reasons, pecuniary reasons, l had difficulties to contend with which no other and above all patriotic reasons, why this should district commander has encountered. Almost if not be insisted upon.

not quite from the day he was appointed disI beg to refer to a letter marked "private"

trict commander to the present time, the press which I wrote to the President, when first con

has given out that he was to be removed ; that sulted on the subject of the change in the War

the administration was dissatisfied with him, &c. Department. It bears upon the subject of this This has emboldened the opponents to the laws removal, and I had hoped would have prevent- of Congress within his command to oppose him ed it.*

in every way in their power, and has rendered I have the honor to be, with great respect,

necessary measures which otherwise may never your obedient servant, U. S. GRANT,

have been necessary. In conclusion, allow me General U.S. A., Secretary of War ad interim.

to say, as a friend desiring peace and quiet, the His Excellency A. JOHNSON,

welfare of the whole country North and South, President of the United States.

that it is in my opinion more than the loyal peo[*Private.]

ple of this country (I mean those who supported HEADQÖRS ARMIES OF THE UNITED STATES, the government during the great rebellion) will

WASHINGTON, D.C., August 1, 1867. quietly submit to, to see the very men of all SIR: I take the liberty of addressing you others whom they have expressed confidence in privately on the subject of the conversation we removed. had this morning, feeling, as I do, the great! I would not have taken the liberty of addressdanger to the welfare of the country should you ing the Executive of the United States thus but carry out the designs then expressed.

for the conversation on the subject alluded to First. On the subject of the displacement of in this letter, and from a sense of duty, feeling the Secretary of War. His removal cannot be that I know I am right in this matter. effected against his will without the consent of With great respect, your obedient servant, the Senate. It is but a short time since the

U.S. GRANT, General United States Senate was in session, and why His Excellency A. JOHNSON, got then have asked for his removal if it was President of the United States.

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