Mr. DOYLE. Yes, ma'am.

Mrs. ProST. Do you feel that the majority of your working members do, or have you had any expression from them?

Mr. DOYLE. Time and again we are absolutely in favor of it.

Mrs. PrOST. Thank you very much, Mr. Doyle.

Mr. BARTLETT. We will be very pleased to hear from Mr. Hope.

STATEMENT OF ANDREW HOPE, MEMBER OF THE EXECUTIVE BOARD, ALASKA NATIVE BROTHERHOOD

Mr. HOPE. My name is Andrew Hope. I am a seiner, also a member of the executive board of the Alaska Native Brotherhood.

One is never so prepared for the subject, so I will talk fisheries. Whether you have any part in dealing with the regulations, the laws that govern the Alaska fisheries, I think it is a good thing to tell some one from Congress our problems.

We have just come through the worst fishing harvest ever known in Alaska, and you just can't realize unless you have been a part of it. It is a disaster. It is not the total failure of the fish, but the management. There is still plenty of fish, enough so the people won't starve. And some of the representatives of the Wildlife in the field use the words, "The Wildlife will be tough." We don't like it. They will be tough. And you begin to wonder who are they anyway. It

is not human.

I feel I have a part in the Wildlife. I feel I have an interest in there, and by some power they have designated certain people to take care of important resources.

I realize you are short for time, but believe me people right this moment are very short of bread.

We have two seasons.

One begins June 20 and is supposed to end by regulation the 18th of August. But these people administering the resources get excited and say, "We will shut it off for 6 days.' We have to stop. Otherwise we all wind up in jail.

That first period, June 24 to August 18, let me tell you what it is because you are not fishermen. June 24 to August 18 does not mean anything. The 2 years before the Fish and Wildlife got together, Farley and all of them, and fixed it up. We will do something. You have been fishing from August 9 through all of August and 2 or 3 days in September. That is where the fish come. The fish does not come in commercial quantities before August 9. So we opposed the setup from June 24 to August 18. We saw no fish except for 1 week in that given time.

Unfortunately, there are certain species of fish that are not controlled by anyone and they come anytime. Last year we had that incident and so the fishermen came out all right and were able to earn enough money to buy essentials. Nothing fancy, just staple foods. This year that run of certain fish did not arrive and it was a failure. So the fishermen did not make out and the families didn't.

We have another fishing season setup known as the fall fishing, which would begin September 27 and closes on October 1. Very few days. There is a Sunday in that period. For some reason the fish came unusually late. If I had money to do it, I would prove it, and next week go out where they stop us and the fish will be there. This

last period of fishing put the rest of the people involved in that fishing season out of business for the year.

I give you a little picture of what it is now. I presume you followed me. I agree with Mrs. Sarvela who is interested in another phase of fishing. Everything she said is good. Everything she said is fact as far as we know. And I also try to give facts as we know from other branch of fishery.

In 1924, Congress wrote a law, one of the strongest laws ever written to control a resource. I think today that they gave them too much power in many ways. They have power to regulate your size and

area.

Mr. BARTLETT. Gave the Fish and Wildlife Service too much power?

Mr. HOPE. Yes. For instance, it is written into the law that at least 50 percent of the fish shall escape. Fifty percent is a big thing. The law should have said 50 percent shall escape and the humans should at least be entitled to 50 percent. But in many cases they have taken the hundred percent for spawning purposes. If they had multiplied and paid off in the 31 years since the law was passed, it would have been all right.

This business of biologists just coming to us now. I don't know how fast they work. I imagine they would work faster on the subject they deal with.

Mrs. Sarvela said that biologists in the herring department found there is no danger although it is gone. I don't know how else you could prove it.

When we come to the Wildlife hearings-by the way, I have been coming for 30 years and I don't think one of the things I have mentioned has ever been accepted. I know it never appeared in the regulations, anything I might have had to say.

Mr. BARTLETT. Let me interrupt right there. Do you know of any recommendations made by any fisherman in Alaska before these Fish and Wildlife hearings having been put into the regulations?

Mr. HOPE. No. I thought myself and other people, they would have to recognize some of the things at least to the point of being checked.

Realizing you are short of time, what did the biologists do in the 31 years we have been regulating this fishery?

Well, before that time, just to enlighten you, we had big canneries. The Libby-McNeill trap cannery right close to Juneau was operating and built up the plant to the point where it was most sanitary and a most efficient cannery. The Dundas Bay, a great big plant, was operating on all trap fish for years and years. Excursion Inlet was a big plant. They would say when they wanted to stop. They make an objective of 150,000 or 200,000 cases and they operate until they get that much. Nobody stop them. No strong competition. And in Hawk Inlet the Harris Co. was operating without any seine fish, all trap fish.

At that time, as Patrick Paul said, we called attention to the Government at that time the fish was being depleted, but they just had longer seasons to do it and got the pack and the graph and stayed steady, just took more time to get the same thing as the years went by. I notice today there is no more Dundas Bay. The great big plant is not operating any more that was there for a number of years back.

It is now being sold for secondhand lumber. Port Althorp was the last one to go and only one left; the P. Harris Co. I know the days when a seine boat came along and caught and brought his fish to market there and he says, "No, we have enough trap fish. Seine fish inferior fish anyhow." Today he is crying for seine boats to come and bring pack and there is no more fish in that Bay.

These are facts no biologist or anybody else can explain away. The great abundance of fish was there, and they use it, and use it without control until they killed themselves off. I didn't ask them to go shut their plants down. The Wildlife didn't ask them to go shut their plants down. But they have gone.

That is just to show there was Bureau fisheries all the time this was happening. I don't like to belittle anyone. I say when you see something going on affecting your very life every day you begin to lose control. So I say for 31 years they took a calendar and a lot of times they don't seem to even look at it. They say. "We will start June 24 and we will shut it down on such a date." Before they have been saying, "We will start on July 5 and we will close it on the 28th of August. Anyone can do that.

This year they said outside of Ketchikan the season shall close down the 28th of August. When I got down there I read the regula tion and behold the period closes on the 27th and the 26th would be the last fishing day. Then I said didn't they look at this calendar 2 years ago. Why fool the people? Just write in there closing on the 26th, because I could have saved a hundred dollars if I had known they was closing the 26th.

They are very touchy when it comes to their hearings, talk you right out no matter what you say. Now Mrs. Sarvela mentioned to you on the fish trap they wanted to stop them, reduce them. So they had a good argument, Fish and Wildlife had a good argument "We want to see what we can do about increasing this run." So at Seattle meeting, "All right, we will go along with it. Give 50 percent of the traps up.' It was written in the regulation for 2 years. They

forgot to tell us they were going to close additional bays for 2 years. We want the same traetment as trap owners. I don't know if they ever wrote in there the trap men got an agreement this will last only 2 years.

But the last hearing this man McKernan, a new man, calls himself a scientist, we had him here one day not so long ago and he said. "We are proposing to do 2 more years of this thing. We had wonderful results."

I don't know. I don't think anybody could say.
Sarvela made a mistake saying improvement.
This regulation has failed. No question about it.

I think Mrs.

Eight million

cases at that time when they took over and now a little over a million. Mr. BARTLETT. Total pack?

Mr. HOPE. Yes.

Mr. BARTLETT. A little over 2 million.

Mr. HOPE. There is a lot of difference between 8 and 2.

say,

“Let's do

If private industry was to be operating here they say the cycle of fish is 2 years to 6 years. Private industry would something about it, watch this thing." I bet any money that they would regulate themselves in such a way that thing will have more even distribution.

This setup we have is supposed to be far better. McKernan treated the subject just like it occurred yesterday; give him a few more years and he would fix it all up.

Mrs. PFOST. I would like to ask you if you have personal knowledge of what the average independent fisherman's income would be for

this year.

Mr. HOPE. Right in this area I think it would be something under $200. That is what they got from the cannery, what the cannery record will show. But they have to go downtown and give to other merchants, by the time they got home they have nothing. They had nothing after they paid their obligations to the store.

In the fishing operation is joint accounts of expenses that is paid first, taken out, and some of it is taken out withholding no matter how small.

I get carried away. Pardon me. But it is so close to me. We had to appeal to someone more than Fish and Wildlife. The thing has been tried so long and is a failure. If we had more time, I would give you examples.

An example: At Anan, close to Wrangell, they build up by protection and there is plenty of fish there and they reserve that and have protective areas. It went bad on them. We ask McKernan here, "Do you believe overseeding dangerous?" He didn't want to answer right away. If I scientist, I would answer right quick. Well, I

don't think so.

Mr. BARTLETT. Mr. Hope, what would be your recommendation on this whole fishery matter?

Mr. HOPE. My recommendation is I think the thing is important enough to the Territory and the United States that really ought to get in there and do more than play with the calendar. There are many places depleted by canneries which chose to get out before they were bankrupt. They depleted great areas way back.

Mrs. ProST. Mr. Hope, are there jobs in the Sitka area to provide supplemental income for those independent fishermen who make $200 or less per year?

Mr. HOPE. Sitka may be a little more fortunate. Might be a fraction of these fishermen get a job there. Some but not enough. Fishermen by nature are not required to have steady employment. They are supposed to go a distance fishing and make enough to take care of them until the season comes about. We are all at the mercy of the Department of Fish and Game. It is a nearsight or mistake on the Game Commission because they make the regulation a little bit too early. They came out with the regulation sometime in June, July, or August. They say no trapping this year. We just come through a bad season, and to make things worse, the same people that work at the trapping. One branch says, "You shall not trap this year because you had a terrible and disastrous fishing season. It is not the intent but that is what it is.

Mr. UTT. Mr. Chairman, painful and unpopular as it is, I am going to again have to call your attention to the time, and we do have another witness. We have quite a replete record on the troubles of the fishermen. I hate to say it, but I think we are going to have

to move on.

Mr. BARTLETT. Do any members have any questions?

Mr. SISK. I have a couple of questions I would like to ask Mr. Hope Do you recommend that the fisheries be turned over to the Territory of Alaska?

Mr. HOPE. Never could be worse than it is now.

Mr. SISK. Couldn't be any worse?

Mr. HOPE. No; I strongly recommend it.
Mr. SISK. One other question, Mr. Hope.

I believe you are

chairman of the lands committee of the Native Brotherhood.

Mr. HOPE. Yes.

Mr. SISK. In general, what are your relations with the Alaska Native Service? Do you feel you are getting complete cooperation from them with reference to land problems?

Mr. HOPE. They are doing what the law provides them to do, and I think they are doing all right.

Mr. SISK. That is all.

Mr. BARTLETT. Mrs. Pfost?
Mrs. PrOST. No questions.
Mr. BARTLETT. Mr. Utt?
Mr. UTT. No questions.

Mr. BARTLETT. Judge Chenoweth?
Mr. CHENOWETH. No questions.

Mr. BARTLETT. Andrew, you understand I have to live with these people. Let me say, if you want to add to what you have said by way of written statement, we will be glad to receive it.

Mr. SISK. I would like to commend Mr. Hope on a very sincere and what I felt to be speaking strictly from the heart. We always appreciate sincere statements.

Mrs. ProST. I wish to join with my colleague, Mr. Sisk, in his

statement.

Mr. CHENOWETH. Make it unanimous.

Mr. BARLETT. Are there any other witnesses to appear committee?

before the

Mr. KIDD. I would like to request before the hearing adjourns that the feasibility of establishment of a commissary at Mount Edgecumbe be explored by the committee. I ask that because there is a high state of confusion that is existing among our businessmen in Sitka.

To illustrate what I mean, I ask Mr. William Olsen, the area director, whether there was going to be a commissary established there. He said, "I never heard about it. I know nothing about it.

Approximately 5 minutes later Dr. Mankinen, officer in charge of the United States Public Health Service-I asked him the same que tion and he tells me the decision is pending. Now the two primary organizations, the right and left hand, seem not to know what is geg So we are vitally concerned.

on.

If there were a commissary established, I can assure you it we be the death of the economic life in Sitka because that Mount Ed cumbe installation is by far the finest and best industry we have her Fishing is second. And you have heard what Mr. Hope just Lumbering is probably third. At the moment our sawmill has been shut down for 2 or 21⁄2 years.

Mr. BARTLETT. Mr. Kidd, you are not unfamiliar with the st that we do have this limitation as to time. With the consent of colleagues, I would like to suge at we give precisely 10 mire