like you to comment on it. They said Governor Heintzleman or any other federally appointed governor had as a direct appointee of the President a contact with Washington which is always bound to be more helpful and stronger than that which could be established by an elective governor. Would you comment on that? Mr. BANFIELD. I do not agree. I do not think your position is any less in Washington by reason of the fact that you are elected than you would be if you were appointed. As a matter of fact, you get more in Alaska than a Representative would get under statehood. You seem to be able to get more as a Delegate without a vote than you get if you had one. I do not believe this stuff, you need a vote. Mr. O'BRIEN. What about the Senate? Mr. BANFIELD. That may be different. Mr. O'BRIEN. Mr. Bartlett's influence in the House is amazing, fantastic. Mr. BANFIELD. I agree with you. I have seen him operate. Mr. O'BRIEN. Sometimes I see it dwindle when we get over to the Senate. Mr. BANFIELD. That is one of the desirable aspects of statehood. Mr. BARTLETT. Since the Delegate is involved, I must say I do fairly well until it comes to the big, important bills and something always seems to happen to them. Mr. BANFIELD. You do pretty well. Mr. BARTLETT. We will have a recess for 5 minutes. (There was a short recess.) Mr. BARTLETT. The next witness will be Leonard King, of Haines. Identify yourself for the record. STATEMENT OF LEONARD KING, PRESIDENT, HAINES BUSINESS COUNCIL, HAINES, ALASKA Mr. KING. My name is Leonard King. I am president of the Haines Business Council, Haines, Alaska. Mr. BARTLETT. Proceed in your own manner, Mr. King. Mr. KING. The nature of my testimony probably will be more or less provincial in nature, being from the Haines-Skagway area. We are particularly interested in the unsurveyed-lands bill in which the University of Alaska participates in taking surveyed lands. And in our area there is a great amount of unsurveyed land that we think it would be better if the university had it. I am not appearing for the university, although I am very friendly with the president of the university, Dr. Patty, attended the University of Alaska. But he has been down there just lately, and we would like to see some program whereby the college could take over some of the unsurveyed lands without waiting the many years for the survey which would be potential moneys for the operation of the University of Alaska and would not come out of current operating revenues in the Territorial legislature. Mr. O'BRIEN. The University of Alaska contributes greatly to the development of the economy of Alaska in addition to educating the people. Mr. KING. Yes, sir. They have something around 6,000 acres there now, and of course, a lot of that is river land which is under Wash ington. The area sounds large, but of course it cannot be all utilized on account of the river valley. It will not be economical or valuable for sale. The timber and small tracts are classified farming areas and recreational areas, and so forth, and wil be valuable for revenue producing. Mr. O'BRIEN. Sometimes our colleagues in Washington are impressed by these grants of land, for example, in the mental health bill, I think it is now a million acres, although Delegate Bartlett wanted to be sure the bill that went through proposed a half a million. They think that is a tremendous gift by the Federal Government, but actually it does not work out that way, does it? Mr. KING. That is right. Mr. O'BRIEN. A great deal of the land is not very valuable and there is not an oil well every 7 feet. Mr. KING. That is true. And in looking at the map of the ground taken by the university in our area, some of it is straight up and down and precipitous, and there is no value whatsoever. But it is included in this vast grant of land you mentioned. Mr. BARTLETT. For the benefit of the committee, Mr. King, you might tell us just where Haines is and what the industries there are. Mr. KING. We had hoped, Mr. Chairman, to have you come to Haines. Delegate Bartlett said-we had the moose meat ready for you and we hoped to have the whole party, or a part of the committee in Haines. I am not saying we were misled, but we thought you were preparing, and we were preparing for you. I will have to wire today to say we are not coming. In other words, I was not prepared to appear before this committee here but in Haines. Mr. BARTLETT. Mr. Sisk? Mr. SISK. I believe I have no questions. Mr. BARTLETT. How many acres in the vicinity of Haines does the university desire? Mr. KING. They would like to take in the area which would be valuable to them now. This is something that is pertinent. We expect to have a bridge in the near future, probably in the next year, crossing the Chilket River, which will open land which we are talking about now, built by the Territory of Alaska. The most valuable part of the land in question is what we do not have, in other words, this large Chilkat Lake area which consists of this large lake and this timberland and also this classified tract for small farming. Mr. BARTLETT. Where is Haines in relation to Juneau? Mr. KING. Haines is at the terminus, it is on Lynn Canal at the terminus of the Haines Highway. In airline miles it would be about 65 or 70 miles. Mr. BARTLETT. The terminus of the pipeline, too. Mr. KING. The terminus of the pipeline, yes, the large pipeline which pumps oil into the Army bases in the interior. Mr. BARTLETT. How many permanent residents? Mr. KING. In the area now, there would be, I would say, about 700. We have not had a census for some time. Mr. BARTLETT. Incorporated? Mr. KING. The town was incorporated in 1910. Mr. BARTLETT. Is that a paved highway out of Haines? Mr. KING. We have a paved highway to the international border which is 40 miles from Haines, the British Columbia border. Mr. BARTLETT. How about the Canadian side? Mr. KING. Commercial fishing. We have a large commercial fishing fleet. Prior to the end of the season, I think Wildlife told me they had 95 boats fishing in the area, the gill netting. Mr. BARTLETT. What kind of season? Mr. KING. Very poor this year. Mr. SISK. Is there a cannery at Haines? Mr. KING. Two canneries; salmon. Mr. SISK. How much payroll do they have there? Mr. KING. Total payroll for the area? Mr. SISK. Yes. Mr. KING. I would not know some of that. I do not know whether it is classified or not, but a lot of that is Government. Mr. SISK. I did not have that particularly in mind. cannery total? What is the Mr. KING. There are two canneries, not very large. One puts up an industrial pack, institutional pack, 4-pound cans, and the other puts up the small cans. I do not know what their payroll would be. Mr. SISK. You do not know what their pack was this last year? Mr. KING. No, I did not get those figures because I had expected those people to appear at the hearing in Haines. Mr. O'BRIEN. You say you have the impact by the military in your area. Mr. KING. Definitely. Mr. O'BRIEN. Would you agree with other people throughout the area that the relationship between the military commanders in Alaska and the communities, with the exception of the expected little frictions, has been pretty good? Mr. KING. In our area I would say very good, sir. Mr. O'BRIEN. I might say, and I have wanted to say this for the record, that I have found that the commanders here, no matter what the branch of the service might be, have gone out of their way to a great extent to establish harmonious relations with the community. And most of the frictions have been due to regulations which come from Washington or which are handled in Washington and over which the local commanders have only the power of recommendation. I just wanted to say that because it has been most refreshing to observe that. Mr. KING. That is a handicap with which we operate under, here in Alaska, directives coming from Washington. Mr. O'BRIEN. Yes. Mr. KING. Mr. Chairman, are there further questions? Mr. SISK. I wanted to inquire a little further as to what potentials do you have in that area in the way of future development? Do you feel that you have a large potential in that area? Mr. KING. Yes, sir, we do; and I think it is proven by the fact that we have this tremendous-that Mr. Banfield probably, before I came in, gave testimony on-huge iron deposit, just 22 miles up on the Haines Highway, and in my contact with the engineers in charge, it is far beyond their expectations, the potential and amounts of iron ore there. The same company has gone just beyond the border and is preparing a copper deposit which they will start hauling this fall. They expect to haul some before snowfall. Which is just across the border. Mr. SISK. What about lumber, pulp mill, and so forth, is there a potential in that area? Mr. KING. Whether that would be large enough is a question, but I believe the timber itself would be valuable to an operation here. The timber we are talking about on unsurveyed land and the timber on the land the university already owns would be valuable to an operation in Juneau. I do not think there is any question about that. It would bring this money to the university to the fund in stumpage. Mr. SISK. Where does this road go, to what particular area of the Canadian side? You spoke of a gravel road. Where does that go? Mr. KING. It meets the Alaska Highway at mile 1016, and then goes both ways to the States and to the interior, to Fairbanks and Anchorage and Valdez and connects with the arterial road system. Mr. BARTLETT. Dr. Taylor? Mr. TAYLOR. You mentioned that the present year was not a good one for fishing in the Haines area. Is this a usual occurrence, or was there something particular this year that caused a decline in the salmon pack? Mr. KING. Of course, Doctor, you are getting into the problems of the fisheries. As an expert, I would not testify on that, only that we believe one thing we do know, we have too many boats in the area for the amount of fish. We have these boats coming from the States which, of course, is tough on our economy as it does not allow the native fishermen and people who fish locally for their living in the area, including this area, to get the amount of fish they ordinarily would. Mr. TAYLOR. Thank you very much. (Discusion off the record.) Mr. SISK. Mr. King, I have just one question. How do you feel about statehood for Alaska? Mr. KING. Of course, I am for statehood. I do not have all the figures, as these distinguished gentlemen who appeared on the stand, as to the economy and how much it costs, but I have been here for 34 years in the Territory of Alaska, and of course, I am definitely in favor of statehood. Mr. SISK. That is all. Mr. BARTLETT. Thank you, Mr. King. Mr. KING. Could I have another minute on one more subject? Mr. KING. It has probably been brought to you this morning by Mayor Coyne of Skagway about our boat harbor. Of course, going into this thing, we took it up with the Army engineers. For many years it appeared we were not getting any place so this bill was introduced in the legislature appropriating $300,000 for the towns of Skagway, Homer, and Haines for a small-boat harbor. This in our case was based on economy, with these fishing boats we have told you about, probably over 100 there alone, without the sport-fishing boats and so forth, with no harbor whatsoever. They pulled the boats up on the beach in the winter, and the corking freezes out and the boats deteriorate. The economy of the district warrants the boat harbor. The only thing, evidently, holding this up is the $100,000 matching fund for public works. 71196-56-pt. 43 Mr. BARTLETT. Mr. King, in that connection, both Mayor Coyne and you spoke about an appropriation by the Territorial legislature to supplement Federal funds when and if appropriated. Is it not true that it is very unusual for a State or Territorial government to appropriate money for that activity because historically the Federal Government is supposed to do the job? Mr. KING. I never heard of it before. Mr. O'BRIEN. That impressed me. If I get your figures correctly, the Territory is willing to put up 75 percent of the cost of this; is that correct? Mr. KING. No, these are matching funds. I do not know Mr. O'BRIEN. How much does the Federal Government put up? Mr. KING. This is on matching funds; $100,000 each. Mr. O'BRIEN. I see what we are working on now. You supplement the costs of doing that? Mr. KING. Fifty-fifty. Mr. O'BRIEN. Our experience in the States, my own experience, the Federal Government puts up the great majority, if you can use "majority" in connection with money of the funds. Mr. KING. That is right. Mr. BARTLETT. Puts up the construction and the local interests only maintain. Mr. KING. We have had many hearing on the subject with the Army engineers, and saw we were a long ways down on the list. Mr. O'BRIEN. All we were required to install at our port at home were the facilities, I am sure, warehouses and things of that sort, because it was to be an inland port, but the cost of dredging and all of that business was the Federal Government's. Mr. KING. This is particularly important at this time because we have a new road going into this Government dock now, connecting with the Haines Highway going into this new Government tank farm being built at this time. The rock for this breakwater can be obtained because they are taking this rock out at $2.75 a yard delivered to this breakwater, where normally it would at least cost twice as much for the rock. It is the economy of the thing that is very important at this. time. Mr. BARTLETT. Thank you, Mr. King. Mr. KING. Thank you. Mr. BARTLETT. Let it be noted we are running somewhat behind schedule and that always happens and it is always the case that the witnesses are precise and brief but we keep on asking questions and. consuming too much time. But we hope to have at least 2 more witnesses this morning, and perhaps 3. Joseph McLean, representing the Juneau Chamber of Commerce. Mr. MCLEAN. Thank you, Mr. Bartlett. I will try to stay within the time limits. Mr. BARTLETT. I am sure you will but I am sure we won't. STATEMENT OF JOSEPH MCLEAN, JUNEAU CHAMBER OF COMMERCE Mr. McLEAN. For the record my name is Joseph McLean. I live in Juneau. I am a lawyer in the insurance business. I am a member of the road committee of the Juneau Chamber of Commerce, and in this same regard we have as a group disscussed roads with other |