On Mr. Gouverneur Morris's motion, for striking out,

New Hampshire, Massachusetts, Connecticut, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, ay, 9; Maryland, Virginia, no, 2. Mr. L. MARTIN and Mr. GOUVERNEUR MORRIS moved to strike out of article 17,

"But to such admission the consent of two thirds of the members present shall be necessary."

Before any question was taken on this motion,2

214

Mr. GOUVERNEUR MORRIS moved the following proposition, as a substitute for the seventeenth article:

"New states may be admitted by the legislature into the Union; but no new states shall be erected within the limits of any of the present states, without the consent of the legislature of such state, as well as of the general legislature."

The first part, to "Union," inclusive, was agreed to, nem con. Mr. L. MARTIN opposed the latter part. Nothing, he said, would so alarm the limited states, as to make the consent of the large states, claiming the western lands, necessary to the establishment of new states within their limits. It is proposed to guaranty the states. Shall Vermont be reduced by force, in favor of the states claiming it? Frankland, and the western county of Virginia, were in a like situation. On Mr. Gouverneur Morris's motion, to substitute, &c., it was agreed to.

Massachusetts, Pennsylvania, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, ay, 6; New Hampshire, Connecticut, New Jersey, Delaware, Maryland, no, 5. Article 17 being before the House, as amended,

Mr. SHERMAN was against it. He thought it unnecessary. The Union cannot dismember a state without its consent.

Mr. LANGDON thought there was great weight in the argument of Mr. Luther Martin; and that the proposition substituted by Mr. Gouverneur Morris would excite a dangerous opposition to the plan. Mr. GOUVERNEUR MORRIS thought, on the contrary, that the small states would be pleased with the regulation, as it holds up the idea of dismembering the large states.

Mr. BUTLER. If new states were to be erected without the consent of the dismembered states, nothing but confusion would ensue. Whenever taxes should press on the people, demagogues would set up their schemes of new states.

Dr. JOHNSON agreed in general with the ideas of Mr. Sherman; but was afraid that, as the clause stood, Vermont would be subjected to New York, contrary to the faith pledged by Congress. He was of opinion that Vermont ought to be compelled to come into the Union. Mr. LANGDON said, his objections were connected with the case of Vermont. If they are not taken in, and remain exempt from taxes, it would prove of great injury to New Hampshire and the other neighboring states.

Mr. DICKINSON hoped the article would not be agreed to. He dwelt on the impropriety of requiring the small states to secure the large ones in their extensive claims of territory.

Mr. WILSON. When the majority of a state wish to divide, they

can do so. The aim of those in opposition to the article, he perceived, was that the general government should abet the minority, and by that means divide a state against its own consent.

Mr. GOUVERNEUR MORRIS. If the forced division of the states is the object of the new system, and is to be pointed against one or two states, he expected the gentlemen from these would pretty quickly leave us. Adjourned.

THURSDAY, August 30.

In Convention.-Article 17 being resumed, for a question on it, as amended by Mr. Gouverneur Morris's substitute.

Mr. CARROLL moved to strike out so much of the article as requires the consent of the state to its being divided. He was aware that the object of this prerequisite might be to prevent domestic disturbances; but such was our situation with regard to the crown lands, and the sentiments of Maryland on that subject, that he perceived we should again be at sea, if no guard was provided for the right of the United States to the back lands. He suggested, that it might be proper to provide, that nothing in the Constitution should affect the right of the United States to lands ceded by Great Britain in the treaty of peace; and proposed a commitment to a member from each state. He assured the House, that this was a point of a most serious nature. It was desirable, above all things, that the act of the Convention might be agreed to unanimously. But should this point be disregarded, he believed that all risks would be run by a considerable minority, sooner than give their concurrence.

Mr. L. MARTIN seconded the motion for a commitment.

Mr. RUTLEDGE. Is it to be supposed that the states are to be cut up without their own consent? The case of Vermont will probably be particularly provided for. There could be no room to fear that Virginia or North Carolina would call on the United States to maintain their government over the mountains.

Mr. WILLIAMSON said, that North Carolina was well disposed to give up her western lands; but attempts at compulsion were not the policy of the United States. He was for doing nothing, in the Constitution, in the present case; and for leaving the whole matter in statu quo.

Mr. WILSON was against the commitment. Unanimity was of great importance, but not to be purchased by the majority's yielding to the minority. He should have no objection to leaving the case of the new states as heretofore. He knew nothing that would give greater or juster alarm than the doctrine, that a political society is to be torn asunder without its own consent.

On Mr. Carroll's motion for commitment,

New Jersey, Delaware, Maryland, ay, 3; New Hampshire, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Pennsylvania, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, no, 8. Mr. SHERMAN moved to postpone the substitute for article 17, agreed to yesterday, in order to take up the following amendment :

"The legislature shall have power to admit other states into the Union; and new states, to be formed by the division or junction of states now in the Union, with the consent of the legislature of such states.”

[The first part was meant for the case of Vermont, to secure its admission.]

On the question, it passed in the negative.

New Hampshire, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Pennsylvania, South Carolina, ay, 5; New Jersey, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, Georgia, no, 6.

Dr. JOHNSON moved to insert the words, "hereafter formed, or," after the words, "shall be," in the substitute for article 17, [the more clearly to save Vermont, as being already formed into a state, from a dependence on the consent of New York for her admission.] The motion was agreed to- Delaware and Maryland only dissenting.

Mr. GOUVERNEUR MORRIS moved to strike out the word "limits," in the substitute, and insert the word "jurisdiction." [This also was meant to guard the case of Vermont- the jurisdiction of New York not extending over Vermont, which was in the exercise of sovereignty, though Vermont was within the asserted limits of New York.]

On this question,

New Hampshire, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, ay, 7; New Jersey, North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, no, 4.

Mr. L. MARTIN urged the unreasonableness of forcing and guarantying the people of Virginia beyond the mountains, the western people of North Carolina and Georgia, and the people of Maine, to continue under the states now governing them, without the consent of those states to their separation. Even if they should become the majority, the majority of counties, as in Virginia, may still hold fast the dominion over them. Again, the majority may place the seat of government entirely among themselves, and for their own convenience; and still keep the injured parts of the states in subjection, under the guaranty of the general government against domestic violence. Не wished Mr. Wilson had thought a little sooner of the value of political bodies. In the beginning, when the rights of the small states were in question, they were phantoms-ideal beings. Now, when the great states were to be affected, political societies were of a sacred nature. He repeated and enlarged on the unreasonableness of requiring the small states to guaranty the western claims of the large ones. It was said yesterday, by Mr. Gouverneur Morris, that if the large states were to be split to pieces without their consent, their representatives here would take their leave. If the small states are to be required to guaranty them in this manner, it will be found that the representatives of other states will, with equal. firmness, take their leave of the Constitution on the table.

It was moved, by Mr. L. MARTIN, to postpone the substituted article, in order to take up the following:

"The legislature of the United States shall have power to erect new states within as well as without the territory claimed by the several states, or either of them, and

admit the same into the Union; provided, that nothing in this Constitution shall be construed to affect the claim of the United States to vacant lands ceded to them by the late treaty of peace;"

which passed in the negative, -New Jersey, Delaware, and Maryland, only, ay.

On the question to agree to Mr. Gouverneur Morris's substituted article, as amended, in the words following:

"New states may be admitted by the legislature into the Union; but no new state shall be hereafter formed or erected within the jurisdiction of any of the present states, without the consent of the legislature of such state, as well as of the general legislature,"

New Hampshire, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Pennsylvania, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, ay, 8; New Jersey, Delaware, Maryland, no, 3.

Mr. DICKINSON moved to add the following clause to the last : "Nor shall any state be formed by the junction of two or more states, or parts thereof, without the consent of the legislature of such states, as well as of the legislature of the United States;"

which was agreed to without a count of the votes.

Mr. CARROLL moved to add,

"Provided, nevertheless, that nothing in this Constitution shall be construed to affect the claim of the United States to vacant lands ceded to them by the treaty of peace."

This, he said, might be understood as relating to lands not claimed by any particular states; but he had in view also some of the claims of particular states.

Mr. WILSON was against the motion. There was nothing in the Constitution affecting, one way or the other, the claims of the United States; and it was best to insert nothing, leaving every thing on that litigated subject in statu quo.

Mr. MADISON considered the claim of the United States as in fact favored by the jurisdiction of the judicial power of the United States over controversies to which they should be parties. He thought it best, on the whole, to be silent on the subject. He did not view the proviso of Mr. Carroll as dangerous; but, to make it neutral and fair, it ought to go farther, and declare that the claims of particular states also should not be affected.

Mr. SHERMAN thought the proviso harmless, especially with the addition suggested by Mr. Madison in favor of the claims of particular states.

Mr. BALDWIN did not wish any undue advantage to be given to Georgia. He thought the proviso proper with the addition proposed. It should be remembered that, if Georgia has gained much by the cession in the treaty of peace, she was in danger during the war of a uti possedetis.

Mr. RUTLEDGE thought it wrong to insert a proviso, where there was nothing which it could restrain, or on which it could operate.

Mr. CARROLL withdrew his motion, and moved the following:"Nothing in this Constitution shall be construed to alter the claims of the United States, or of the individual states, to the western territory; but all such claims shall be examined into, and decided upon, by the Supreme Court of the United States."

Mr. GOUVERNEUR MORRIS moved to postpone this, in order to take up the following:

"The legislature shall have power to dispose of, and make all needful rules and regulations respecting, the territory or other property belonging to the United States; and nothing in this Constitution contained shall be so construed as to prejudice any claims, either of the United States or of any particular state."

The postponement agreed to, nem. con.

Mr. L. MARTIN moved to amend the proposition of Mr. Gouverneur Morris, by adding,

"But all such claims may be examined into, and decided upon, by the Supreme Court of the United States."

Mr. GOUVERNEUR MORRIS. This is unnecessary, as all suits to which the United States are parties are already to be decided by the Supreme Court.

Mr. L. MARTIN. It is proper, in order to remove all doubts on this point.

On the question on Mr. L. Martin's amendatory motion,—

New Jersey, Maryland, ay, 2; New Hampshire, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Virginia, no, 6.

States not further called, the negatives being sufficient, and the point being given up.2

245

The motion of Mr. Gouverneur Morris was then agreed to, Maryland alone dissenting.

Article 18 being taken up, the word "foreign" was struck out, nem. con., as superfluous, being implied in the term "invasion."

Mr. DICKINSON moved to strike out "on the application of its legislature, against." He thought it of essential importance to the tranquillity of the United States, that they should in all cases suppress domestic violence, which may proceed from the state legislature itself, or from disputes between the two branches, where such exist.

Mr. DAYTON mentioned the conduct of Rhode Island, as showing the necessity of giving latitude to the power of the United States on this subject.

On the question,

New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, ay, 3; New Hampshire, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, no, 8.

On a question for striking out "domestic violence," and inserting "insurrections," it passed in the negative.

New Jersey, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, ay, 5; New Hampshire, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, no, 6. Mr. DICKINSON moved to insert the words, " or executive," after the words, "application of its legislature." The occasion itself, he remarked, might hinder the legislature from meeting.

On this question,

New Hampshire, Connecticut, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, ay, 8; Massachusetts, Virginia, no, 2; Maryland, divided.

Mr. L. MARTIN moved to subjoin to the last amendment the words, "in the recess of the legislature." On which question, Maryland only, ay.