is when they decided not to hold the investigation right on into election day. Mr. ISHIMARU. Did anyone suffer any illness after these bus trips? Anyone have a heart attack or- Mr. TURNER. We had two people who actually got seriously ill. Mr. Jackson had a stroke. Mr. ISHIMARU. How old was he? Mr. TURNER. Ninety-three-year-old man and they had to rush him back from Mobile that night and bring him home. There was another lady who suffered a heart attack we all know is related to that trip but this gentleman got sick-he was sick before he left, but they had to bring him back from Mobile. He was just that ill and his family had tried to get them not to let him go because he was ill and got a doctor's statement that he should not go and of course, they went out in the police car and picked this guy up and brought him to town and put him on the bus after he wouldn't come himself. That is how serious this was, and this man was 93 years old in the bed sick at the time. Of course we later tried to have some action, but the people were frigthened and would not file a lawsuit as a result of the man getting sick down there. He didn't die. He still lives but he had a stroke following that thing and they brought him back that night. Mr. ISHIMARU. Thank you very much. Reverend DOBYNES. Again along with what Mr. Turner had said Mrs. Pearl Brown, 85 years old, the same thing. They had to go out and pick her up and bring her to the bus. Mr. EDWARDS. Mr. Kiko. Mr. Kiko. In both of your testimonies, Mr. Turner and Mr. Sanders, it was mentioned that you had been in touch with the Justice Department in earlier years and they told you to do a more aggressive job with absentee ballots. Was there ever any request that they prosecute and how far back were you trying to get the Justice Department to prosecute what you felt were violations of voting fraud statues? Mr. TURNER. I ran for office in 1966 as a State legislator. At that time I was very close to the Justice Department, myself almost worked as an agent to be honest with you and they actually explained to me, told me, showed me how people actually stole the election form me but explained to me at that time there is nothing they could do even though they knew it but they showed me the evidence where people came into their county by the busloads from another county and voted. I knew this because I had personal relationship with John Dorr, and says, yes, sir, and these kinds of things in the early sixties, and we worked very close together. These also were the people just telling you who informed me of the fact that there was a large number of people that we were not getting to vote because of these large number of folks who were ill and out of the county and when we got the census records they were telling the truth for real. There is no way you will know in the election period in the black belt of Alabama vote only people who can physically walk in the door and vote. There are too many people leaving the county every day. Mr. SANDERS. I should point out there were no requests for criminal prosecutions, it was simply for civil action from the Justice Department. We couldn't even get civil action because they were simply saying this whole area of absentee is kind of vague. That is what disturbed us. We can't get civil action and yet criminal action requires a lot more specificity than civil action and they can get criminal prosecution when we couldn't get civil action. We didn't ask for criminal violations. I want to make that clear. We simply asked because we were dealing with the civil rights department and we were simply asking them to put a stop to that. We didn't ask for criminal violations. Mr. KIKO. What do you mean civil violations? I don't understand. Mr. SANDERS. Well, by civil violations when we are essentially asking the Justice Department saying these things are going on. You have these watches and other kinds of things. Put a stop to it. Bring a civil action. Enjoin this kind of action. Do anything you need to do to stop it. We didn't ask them for criminal violations. Mr. KIKO. Did you ever bring any of these election irregularities to the attention of any congressional committees to hold hearings? Mr. SANDERS. No. Mr. KIKO. I have no further questions. Mr. EDWARDS. We thank the witnesses very much for very valuable testimony. We wish you well and thank you for coming all the way up to Washington. Mr. TURNER. We would like to thank the committee for allowing the chairman to come. Mr. MITCHELL. Mr. Chairman, as you conclude, I am Senator Clarence Mitchell who have known you for some time. I would like for you and the committee members for the record to note we have submitted a statement but we also have some of our State legislators from across the country who have come in support of our colleagues who are from Alabama. We have Representative Gloria Tanner all the way from Denver, CO. We have State Representative Joe Preston from Pennsylvania and State Representatives David Richardson and Dianne Watson, who is here from California, also. We want you to know we just don't perceive this as an Alabama situation. It is a beginning of a pattern that we see threatening all of us wherever we are throughout the country. Mr. EDWARDS. Thank you very much. Mr. MITCHELL. Thank you. [Statement of Senator Mitchell follows:] THE NATIONAL BLACK CAUCUS OF STATE LEGISLATORS 206 Hall of States Building, 444 N. Capitol St., N.W., Washington, D.C. 20001 (202) 624-5457 FOUNDED TESTIMONY OF MARYLAND STATE SEN. CLARENCE M. MITCHELL, HOUSE JUDICIARY SUBCOMMITTEE ON ALABAMA VOTING FRAUD Thank you for allowing these remarks to become part Roos A Moties McMurry The Justice Department evidences little commitment to furthering The National Black Caucus of State Legislators defines this lack In the first instance, the Alabama voting fraud cases, millions NBCSL "A National Network For Political Equality!" Alabama Voting Fraud The second issue, redistricting/reapportionment plans, shows the Justice Department taking a position that minimal increases in the number of black elected officials is sufficient within the strictures of the Voting Rights Act of 1965 and the amended version. In North Carolina, for example, the department has ignored the intent of Congress and challenged a plan which would expand the opportunities for blacks to be elected to the state legislature. In South Carolina, we have seen the legislation redistricting state senate seats being challenged by the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People. In this case, the Justice Department has said this plan is adequate even though it does not fully create the opportunities for blacks to be elected to the state senate. In Georgia, 23 counties allow sole commissioner systems which obviously dilute black voting strength. Three counties are being challenged under the Voting Rights Act for this practice and more challenges are expected. In Alabama and Florida the at-large election systems are being challenged for their exclusion of blacks from successfully seeking public office. In Mississippi, the department has, under Section 5 of the Voting Rights Act, not acted to prevent counties from using redistricting/reapportionment plans that have either not been approved or been disapproved. Challenges to these plans, implemented without approval, must be made by local citizens groups or other private entities because the Justice Department has adopted a hands-off policy. The NBCSL believes these two issues are of primary importance and we would appreciate the opportunity to bring them before the House Judiciary Committee on September 26. [The subcommittee reconvened at 1:30 p.m.] Mr. EDWARDS. The subcommittee will come to order again. This is the afternoon session of hearings on the civil rights implications of Federal voting fraud prosecutions. This morning we had people from Alabama who testified. They testified to the effect that they feel very strongly, Mr. Keeney, that much of the actions by the Federal Government and the Department of Justice are wrong and that they have an immensely chilling effect on black voter participation. I will say from the testimony that these Alabama prosecutions raise a number of troubling questions. What was the Federal interest in these cases? What was the role of the various divisions of the Justice Department? In this case, we are talking about one case in particular, in Perry County. How was the Civil Rights Division involved. Did the Criminal Division follow procedures it has established, and do these procedures adequately consider the civil rights impact an investigation and prosecution might have? In other words, we are going to ask you about the bus trips of 51⁄2 hours with old black people on them, to bring witnesses to testify before the grand jury, surrounded by FBI agents and local police and State police. It is really not a very pretty picture. Most fundamentally, do these prosecutions signal a change in enforcement of the Voting Rights Act or is it just, as I believe your testimony will state, a matter of enforcing Federal law? I am sure in the past you have been a very helpful witness, and I am sure you will help us a lot and shed light on these questions. Would you introduce your colleague, and you may proceed. STATEMENT OF HON. JOHN C. KEENEY, DEPUTY ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL, CRIMINAL DIVISION, DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE Mr. KEENEY. Yes, Mr. Chairman. I have with me on my right Mr. Craig Donsanto. He is the head of our Election Fraud Branch in our Public Integrity Section. He is a career professional and has been working on election fraud violations for something like the last 14 years. Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the opportunity to appear and to try and put in perspective the Department of Justice position with respect to these Alabama matters. In the Department of Justice, you mentioned the Voting Rights Act and the enforcement, fraud enforcement. I think I can best put in perspective the attitude of the criminal division of the Department of Justice with respect to the Voting Rights Act and to election fraud by quoting Senator Williams of Delaware in 1965 when he offered an amendment to 42 U.S.C., 1973,(c). If I may, I am going to read Senator Williams' words. He articulates them much better than I can, Mr. Chairman. This is our attitude. I have always been in favor of guaranteeing to every American citizen an equal opportunity to particpate in the election process, but I feel just as strongly this guarantee is meaningless if that vote is not counted properly or if that vote is effectively cancelled by a vote that is illegally cast, or if another person illegally registers to vote. I feel that Congress, in its efforts to see to it that the integrity of a |