MILITARY SALES LEGISLATION

Mr. FASCELL. All right, let us let it go at that. What is your assessment of the effect on the internal security situation in Latin America if the military sales bill is delayed unduly or defeated?

Mr. NUTTER. Delay or defeat of the military sales bill, Mr. Chairman, would have a serious effect on a great many of our programs, and certainly on those in this area. We think it would be most unfortunate if that bill were delayed or did not go through at all this year. Mr. FASCELL. Can you give us any particular case history that directly hangs on the question of the Military Sales Act being passed or not unduly delayed?

Mr. NUTTER. We do have an outstanding request [security deletion] and we believe that it is important for their security to have them. Mr. FASCELL. That is for their major military force.

Mr. NUTTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. FASCELL. There is no immediate emergency. That is more a political-military question than any kind of emergency.

Mr. NUTTER. It is quite important, we believe, that we be able to furnish some material to the Latin Americans in order to help them maintain their internal security capability and to maintain our friendly relations with them. It is not a question of expanding their armed forces, but of reequipment.

Mr. FASCELL. In other words, what you are saying is that we would have obvious political and military problems or embarrassments if this program is unduly delayed or defeated. We could live with it and get by, but it would create a lot of difficulties. Isn't that what you are saying?

Mr. NUTTER. Yes, sir.

BLACK POWER MOVEMENT IN THE CARIBBEAN

Mr. FASCELL. We have had some testimony about the Black Power movement in the Caribbean. I want to know, specifically, what is the extent, in your intelligence estimates, of direct Black Power connections emanating out of Cuba, in terms of money, direction, efforts, et cetera, and where does it go? Does it go to the islands of the Caribbean? Does it come into the United States?

Mr. NUTTER. Mr. Chairman, as far as I know [security deletion]. Mr. FASCELL. There were reports at one time, as I recall it, of several identified people going through the Caribbean area, all black, loaded with money and stirring up trouble. Where they came from seemed to be some kind of mystery, but they were traveling, they were agitating, and they did have plenty of money. Do you know whether or not anything like that is going on now?

Mr. NUTTER. I certainly would not want to say it is not going on. Mr. FASCELL. But you do not have any direct knowledge?

Mr. NUTTER. I do not have direct evidence.

Mr. FASCELL. I am like you. It is probably going on. I am wondering who is doing it and how.

Mr. FULTON. Of course, one of our greatest Black Power leaders in the United States was born in Trinidad.

Mr. NUTTER. There have been a couple of visits by Stokely Carmichael.

Mr. FASCELL. We have touched on that in previous testimony. I am wondering if there is a direct pipeline from Cuba into the United States with respect to agitation in the United States.

Mr. NUTTER. [Security deletion.]

Mr. FASCELL. It would not be within your knowledge?

Mr. NUTTER. No.

INTELLIGENCE REPORTS

Mr. FASCELL. What is your direct relationship with respect to Military Intelligence as it affects your program? Is it on a day-to-day basis or a monthly summary?

Mr. NUTTER. We have day-to-day reports.

Mr. FASCELL. They are available to you?

Mr. NUTTER. Yes, sir. If there were any immediate developments, it would be made known.

Mr. FASCELL. You do get the morning estimate?
Mr. NUTTER. Yes, sir.

U.S. MILGROUP PERSONNEL ON HOST COUNTRY ROLLS

Mr. FULTON. Could we turn to the other side of the coin you are speaking of? On our U.S. military groups we have a method of exporting U.S. military intelligence and training and advancing U.S. power. In Brazil as well as in Colombia, our military groups are really considered part of the local country forces.

For example, in Colombia, as I recall it, we have 48 officers and enlisted men. Although the U.S. MilGroup have separate headquarters in Bogotá, they are actually considered part of the Colombian forces. When Colombia has a Navy of 43,000 men and the United States have people in that Navy, how does that work out? Is it a good arrangement to have our U.S. personnel really in foreign navies, armies and air forces, in the Caribbean and Latin America and the South American area? Is that a good U.S. military or foreign policy?

Admiral HOLMES. You have me a little bit out of my area, Mr. Fulton. As far as I know, naval personnel are engaged in training and technical assistance. If I am right, I do not think it is right to say they are integrated with their forces."

Mr. FULTON. I would respectfully disagree, as U.S. military personnel are part of the armed forces in both Brazil and Colombia. I have been down there. The question then is, should that sort of arrangement be continued? Should U.S. military personnel be considered as part of the force of any particular nation? Our U.S. military people do keep separate headquarters, but they are considered part of the local military forces.

Will you put a statement in the record, with the chairman's permission?

Mr. FASCELL. That sounds like a policy decision. I had never heard of that before, unless you are referring to some special type people down there out of uniform.

Mr. FULTON. No, they are in U.S. uniform. Our military group at Bogotá, has 48 officers and enlisted men, as liaison to 55,000 people in the Colombian Army and 43,000 in the Colombian Navy.

Mr. FASCELL. I hear you.

Mr. FULTON. My question-Is this a good U.S. policy?

Mr. FASCELL. I have never heard of that. That is the point. We had better find out whether it is actually being done.

Mr. MORSE. This is in Mr. Nutter's area of responsibility. We can find out right now. Let's hear from him.

Mr. FASCELL. Is it or isn't it, Mr. Secretary?

Mr. NUTTER. This occurs in the Brazilian Navy. The admiral in charge of the naval mission is carried on the Brazilian rolls as a rear admiral as a matter of protocol, but this is strictly honorary. He has no function in the forces. He serves in an advisory capacity as a member of our mission. He has no command responsibilities. Ten other naval officers are carried similarly at their U.S. ranks. I am not sure in what sense they would view them as members of the Brazilian Navy.

REIMBURSEMENT OF MILGROUP PAY AND ALLOWANCES

Mr. FULTON. The Brazilian Government pays him through some financial arrangement with the U.S. Government actually to take care of the cost of his pay by the U.S. military.

Mr. NUTTER. I do not believe so.

Mr. FASCELL. Not only is this bad policy; I want to assure you it happens to be against the law.

Mr. FULTON. I can state the amount. In Colombia, it is $85,000 that they put into U.S. military as pay, but not pay individually to each

man.

Mr. FASCELL. That is an interesting thing, Mr. Nutter.

Mr. NUTTER. There is no direct pay of any sort to members of our Armed Forces.

Mr. FASCELL. Mr. Lang.

(A biographical sketch of Mr. William Lang follows:)

WILLIAM E. LANG, DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF DEFENSE FOR INTERNATIONAL SECURITY AFFAIRS (AFRICA AND WESTERN HEMISPHERE)

William E. Lang was born in Nyack, N.Y. in 1925. After serving three years in the Navy during World War II, he completed his formal education at Georgetown University and the Harvard Law School. He joined the Department of Defense in 1951, initially serving as an assistant to the General Counsel of the Navy. In 1952 he joined the staff of the Secretary of Defense, where he has remained since that time, in varying capacities, legal and policy, both in Washington and abroad.

STATEMENT OF WILLIAM LANG, DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF DEFENSE FOR INTERNATIONAL SECURITY AFFAIRS

Mr. LANG. If I might comment, I am William Lang, Deputy Assistant Secretary, ISA.

The military missions in Latin America began in the early 1920's. Under these early arrangements, U.S. military personnel were made available to the armed forces of the host state and they were paid by the host state. Those arrangements have been changed.

You will recall that the Mansfield amendment in the mid-1950's directed that our personnel abroad no longer receive any direct pay by a foreign government. As a result any payment due to the individual now goes to the U.S. Treasury. Payment does not go to the individual.

Mr. FULTON. Yes, I agree to that, because they have been indirectly paid.

Mr. LANG. The missions today do not have any command function or command responsibility in the host state forces. They serve in an advisory capacity, as do our MAAG personnel elsewhere in the world.

Mr. FULTON. But in these two countries, Brazil and Colombia, these U.S. military personnel are considered as part of the armed forces of that country. This is different from other places around the world. That is what I am pointing out.

The question is, is that a good policy? I would rather have it put in the record.

Mr. MORSE. I think it is too important to leave up in the air.

Mr. FASCELL. I think we should give Mr. Lang an opportunity to answer in full. Why don't you come up and join us at the table. Mr. MORSE. In fairness to Mr. Fulton

Mr. FULTON. I have made my comments as a statement of fact. They can put a statement in the record. I do not want to take too much time at this stage.

Mr. FASCELL. We will be glad to put their statement in the record. But let me ask, if I may, does the U.S. Government now receive reimbursement in some cases from the host government for military advisers?

Mr. LANG. That is correct, sir.

Mr. FASCELL. In every country in Latin America?

Mr. NUTTER. It is not true in every country.

Mr. FASCELL. Some countries?

Mr. NUTTER. Some.

Mr. FASCELL. Which countries?

Mr. NUTTER. I would have to supply that for the record.

Mr. FULTON. In Colombia, it is at present $85,000.

Mr. FASCELL. Whatever it is, please supply it for the record. (The information requested follows:)

REIMBURSEMENT TO THE UNITED STATES FOR PAY AND ALLOWANCES OF U.S.

MILITARY ADVISERS

Under terms of the original Mission Agreements, 17 countries paid direct compensation to U.S. military personnel serving with the Missions. The "Mansfield Amendment" of 1958 (72 Stat. 275, PL 85-477) barred members of U.S. Military Missions from accepting compensation from foreign governments and, since the effective date of that legislation, foreign payments have not been received by members of the U.S. military Missions in Latin America. Arrangements with the following countries call for reimbursement to the United States, in whole or in part, for the pay and allowances of U.S. military advisers serving with the Missions: Argentina, Brazil, Colombia, Ecuador, El Salvador, Paraguay, Uruguay, and Venezuela.

Mr. FASCELL. With respect to the other aspect of this doublebarreled question, I understand that no U.S. military person holds any official position in any other government, is that correct?

Mr. LANG. That is correct. The head of the naval mission in Brazil is carried on the Brazilian Navy register as a rear admiral, but he does not have any command function within the Brazilian Navy.

Mr. FULTON. But he is on the list of their military personnel in the country of Brazil.

Mr.LANG. That is right.

Mr. FASCELL. Is that the only individual?

Mr. LANG. There are a total of 11 naval officers carried at their U.S. ranks.

Mr. MORSE. Why is that permitted? I do not see any advantage and nothing but potential disaster in that sort of arrangement. I see absolutely no advantage accruing to the United States by having him so carried.

Mr. LANG. This has been a matter of tradition since the inception of the naval mission back in the early 1920's.

Mr. FULTON. I am questioning the tradition as a good U.S. policy at this time.

Mr. MORSE. I would hope somebody would take a hard look at that, because it might have been relevant in the 1920's, but it certainly does not have relevance in the 1970's.

Mr. NUTTER. I quite agree. I was not aware of this particular linkage, and I would not consider it desirable.

(DOD Comment: Subsequent to this hearing, all Military Groups were required to report on the question of whether U.S. military personnel are carried on host country military rolls. All reported negative except Brazil, where 11 naval personnel are so carried for protocol purposes.)

Mr. FASCELL. I want to get back a little bit to the Soviet

Mr. ROYBAL. Before you do that, Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask, with regard to the money that the host country pays for advisers, does that go directly to the Treasury, or does it go to the Treasury and then to the adviser himself?

Mr. LANG. The money that formerly went to the individual adviser now goes to the Treasury. Our personnel continue to receive their pay and allowances out of normal U.S. appropriations. There is no direct connection between the payment by the host country and the pay and allowances received by the individual.

Mr. FASCELL. We have grant training programs and paid training

programs.

SOVIET LONG-RANGE AIRCRAFT

This aircraft that the Russians have flown in for the first time in the Caribbean is the TU-95 BEAR?

Admiral HOLMES. TU-95 BEAR.

Mr. FASCELL. You told us, but I cannot recall right now, what kind of airplane that is.

Admiral HOLMES. It is a large, four-engine turbo-prop plane. It is Navy-subordinated. They use it for surveillance in the Atlantic down as far south as the Azores and approaches to Gibraltar. There are three groups of these that flew into Havana. The first time was April 18, the second time April 25, and the third time May 13.

Mr. FASCELL. Do the Russians have any long-range bombers actually stationed in Cuba.

Admiral HOLMES. NO.

Mr. FASCELL. The allegation has been made that the Russians have had some large, long-range bombers capable of carrying nuclear bombs actually stationed on Cuba. The only knowledge that we have is of the TU-95 on three different flights, is that correct?

Admiral HOLMES. That is correct.