Attorney General KENNEDY. Senator, I do not know that we can blame the fact that the Negro is not educated on Reconstruction days, but perhaps we can.

Could I just give you these figures in South Carolina, Senator? Senator JOHNSTON. Do you have under 25?

Attorney General KENNEDY. No Senator. They are for the population 25 and above.

Senator JOHNSTON. It is still the same.

Attorney General KENNEDY. The nonwhite population is 333,000; 33,000, or 10 percent, have had no schooling whatsoever; 103,000 have had schooling of only 1 to 4 years and another 65,000 have had schooling 5 to 6 years. So it is over 60 percent of the Negro population of the State of South Carolina; well over 60 percent have not completed the sixth grade.

I will be glad to give you the book.

Senator JOHNSTON. To be fair, would you rate under 25 also and submit them to the committee?

Attorney General KENNEDY. I will be glad to do that. But as for the Reconstruction period, I understood that period was favorable to the Negro, so I do not know how we can blame the fact that the Negro did not receive an education on Reconstruction.

The white population over 25 in South Carolina is 802,000; 17,000 have received no education; 75,000, 1 to 4 years; and 90,000, 5 to 6. That is about 20 percent for whites as compared to 60 percent nonwhite.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Attorney General, in the past 15 years, the State of Mississippi has spent more on Negro education than on white education and I certainly think the figures under 25 should be placed in the record.

Senator ERVIN. And I think we have shown our concern for the education of all of North Carolina's children of both races. I am convinced that North Carolina has spent a for greater proportion of her earthly substance for the education of Negroes than has the State of Massachusetts.

Of course, it is true we have many more.

You have about 111,000.

We have about 1,116,000. And they are good people.

The CHAIRMAN. I think the record will show that my State has more Negroes, too, than all the Eastern States combined.

Attorney General KENNEDY. Could I put Massachusetts in so that we get everybody in the record?

Senator ERVIN. Yes.

Attorney General KENNEDY. There are 64,000 in Massachusetts, 64,000 Negroes; 2,410 received no education, 3,847 have received grades 1 to 4, and 5,685, grades 5 to 6.

Senator ERVIN. I am sorry we got into a controversy about the States.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you place the number of Negro teachers you have in Massachusetts in the record?

Attorney General KENNEDY. We do not have separate schools, you know, in Massachusetts, Senator.

The CHAIRMAN. I said would you place the number of Negro teachers in Massachusetts in the record.

Attorney General KENNEDY. I will be glad to do that, but when you say you have more Negro superintendents of schools and more Negro professors in Southern States, you have Negro schools.

(By letter dated September 26, 1963, addressed to Harold H. Greene, Department of Justice, from Owen B. Kiernan, Massachusetts Commissioner of Education, such statistics are not available. This letter is printed on p. 483 of the appendix.)

The CHAIRMAN. I warrant if you put the information on Negro schoolteachers placed in the record, in the Eastern States and also in the Southern States, you will find that you have more Negro teachers in my State than in all the Eastern States combined.

Attorney General KENNEDY. I thought these figures would be of interest.

Senator ERVIN. Yes, sir; they are of interest, but they would be far more illuminating if the Department of Justice with all the manpower at its disposal would bring in figures showing the school attendance records of children under 25 years of age and the number of adults in each age group above 25 years of age who have not attended school. I believe that you will find that most of the people in North Carolina of whom you speak are people up in their 70's or 80's. That would be my guess. I had hoped that we would be along a little further in our consideration of the bill. Maybe we should go back to the bill and quit throwing mud or statistics at each others' States.

Mr. Attorney General

Attorney General KENNEDY. I will submit those, Mr. Chairman. The CHAIRMAN. They will be admitted.

(The material referred to follows:)

Persons 25 years old and over with less than 5 years of school completed

Source: U.S. Department of Health, Education, and Welfare based on 1960 census data supplied by the U.S. Department of Commerce, Bureau of the Census.

Senator ERVIN. Mr. Attorney General, I would have only one objection to title IV, which would establish a community relations service, if it were not for the fact that no Federal agency ever created has ever gone out of existence and none of them are ever satisfied with the powers that they have. Under the bill, the community relations service would be given power of conciliation only. But if it should follow the example of every other Federal agency created between the beginning of this country and this moment, it will be back here very soon asking Congress for coercive powers in addition to the conciliatory powers which this bill will confer upon it. My other objection to this title is that under it, a centralized Federal Government would send its employees abroad throughout the length and breadth of the land in numbers like the locusts to eat up the substance of the taxpayers and intermeddle in affairs and controversies which can be solved satisfactorily only by voluntary action on the part of the people living in communities.

I oppose title V, which would extend the life of the Civil Rights Commission for two reasons. In the first place, the activities of the Civil Rights Commission duplicate in significant respects the activities of the Civil Rights Division of the Department of Justice. If the community relations service to be established by title IV of the bill comes into existence, we will witness a triplication of activities on the part of the Civil Rights Commission, the Civil Rights Division of the Department of Justice and the community relations service. I am unable to comprehend why it should be thought that the Federal Government should maintain three separate agencies to deal with racial problems-especially since all of the activities of all other Federal agencies are being diverted from their primary purposes to deal with such problems.

Besides, all of the recommendations of the Civil Rights Commission I can recall at the moment are subject to the same defect which is inherent in this and all other so-called civil rights bills. All of its recommendations for legislation I can now recall are based on the unhappy thesis that the only way to promote the civil rights of some Americans is to rob all other Americans of civil rights equally as precious and to reduce the States to meaningless zeroes on the map. I will not make any further comment in respect to the Civil Rights Commission because the Subcommittee on Constitutional Rights of the Senate Judiciary Committee has considered in detail the bills to extend the life of the Commission.

This brings me to title VI, which deals with what is called nondiscrimination in federally assisted programs. Mr. Chairman, I would like to read this whole section.

Attorney General KENNEDY. Senator, may I interrupt?

Senator ERVIN. Yes, sir.

Attorney General KENNEDY. We are working at the present time, Senator, on new language for title VI and have made some progress. There are Members of Congress and the Senate who have sponsored this bill as a whole, which includes title VI. I think the language we are working on now is perhaps an improvement over the language presently in title VI. I wonder if we could come back to title VI after we have submitted the new language and we have had a chance to discuss it in full? I would like first to have it gone over with the Mem