Mr. C. Wood supported the Motion, and said, that he heard nothing to invalidate his hon. friend's statements. The gallant officer had shown, that half-pay officers were harshly treated; but he had not given any reason why officers on whole pay should be suffered to have the emoluments both of civil and military employments. In his opinion, the pay of an officer ought to abate when he took a civil office. Sir Francis Burdett said a few words against the Motion. He was sorry that he could not agree with his hon. friend; for he was not aware of any reason why officers who had passed a long life in the service of their, country, should be excluded from accepting office in the civil departments of the country; and he thought, that when they did, it would be very hard to deprive them of their military pay and emoluments. He saw no reason for depriving any class of officers of that half-pay which they had so hardly earned. As he understood the Motion, it would go to deprive some officers of their half-pay, which was quite contrary to the general principles which, he thought, ought to be acted on. He was quite aware of the necessity of encouraging the Ministers to practise that economy which was now required by the country, but he could not consent to urge that economy at the expense of individuals. given a regiment, and enjoyed the full | pay, with all the emoluments of the office. There was another case - that of the Lieutenant Governor of the Tower, and the Surveyor General of the Ordnance, who had each 1,2001. a-year. Were either of those officers to give up their regiments they would just receive 2001. a-year for their services. What motive, then, could they have for accepting office? Let the House only look at the grounds upon which the hon. Member pressed his Motion. He said, that they dealt harshly with the half-pay officers, and he called upon them to deal as harshly with those upon full pay; for wherein lay the difference?-the officer who received full pay had earned it as well and was as justly entitled to it as the officer on half-pay. The hon. Member was inclined to propose, that when a general officer received a civil appointment, he should immediately resign his regiment; but the income of that regiment was given chiefly on account of the great responsibility which the colonel of a regiment necessarily undertook. A colonel was often bound to pay large sums to Government on account of the various persons connected with the regiment, who might happen to become defaulters. Recently he had to call upon the colonel of one regiment for a sum of 1,500l.; upon the colonel of another, for 1,8007.; and upon the colonel of another, for 2,000l., though the lastmentioned sum was afterwards reduced to 1,400. Colonels of regiments were answerable for agents for clothing, and for a variety of other matters, for which they could not be made responsible if their incomes were withdrawn or suspended. Within the present year, ten general officers had been appointed to regiments, and he had institued an inquiry into their length of service and their ages, and he had struck an average-he found that the average period of service was thirty-nine years, and their average age fifty-five years. The 130 regiments in the service afforded the only prizes in the profession to 13,000 officers on full and half pay belonging to it. Would the House be disposed to withdraw those prizes? He hoped, that with those facts before them, Members would see the necessity rather of rejecting | than of adopting the Resolution of the hon. Gentleman, in case he should deem it right to press that Motion to a division, which, he hoped, would not prove the case. Mr. C. Fergusson observed, that there were many situations with small salaries which could not be properly filled except by half-pay officers, and he thought it was hard to deprive them of the power of holding such offices. If the subject were likely to be taken into consideration by his Majesty's Government, he would recommend his hon. friend to withdraw his Motion. Lord Althorp felt all the inconvenience of Ministers beng placed in a situation of refusing to make allowances and grant superannuations to gentlemen; he felt, however, that the House was placed in a critical situation; and while he regretted the difficulty in which Government was placed, he must insist that it was the duty of the House to press economy on the Government. It was painful, perhaps, for Members to enforce economy when it affected individuals, but there was a necessity for them, being trustees for the public, not to allow their feelings to get the better of their duty to the public, As to The statement made by his hon. friend | to officers holding other situations, and had not been answered, in the slightest not continuing the half-pay, than that the degree, by the right hon. Gentleman. It one was usual, and the other not. seemed to him a partial system to deprive the colonels of regiments, he did not look the lower ranks of officers of their half-on their appointments as a remuneration pay if they accepted civil situations, and for past services; these appointments to allow the higher ranks to retain their involved, he believed, certain duties, and full pay with official situations. Such a the colonels had no other remuneration. system ought not to be continued. The He wished to see the principle of the Act hou. Baronet and the hon. Member for of Parliament extended to all classes of Kircudbright seemed to think that the pensions and allowances. It would be half-pay was to be continued at the same well for the Government to take up this amount as it ever had been; and if that subject; but if it did not, and if no other were the way in which they pressed hon. Member, more competent to the task economy on the Government, they might than himself, did, he did not know that he be sure that the Government would should not call the attention of the House steadily attend to their recommendation. to the subject, before the close of the Being convinced of the necessity of doing Session. Something like principle ought everything possible to enforce economy, to be acted on throughout; and he and limit the national expenditure, he thought that the principle of the bill inshould give his vote for the Motion of the troduced by the hon. Member for Dorsethon. Member. shire, that on the acceptance of an office, double the value of any half-pay or allowance, the latter should be suspended; and on the acceptance of an office of less value, half the half-pay or allowance should be suspended-was the principle that ought to be adopted. If that were not done, and if the House did not take some opportunity of considering the whole subject, the six millions might be increased to a yet greater sum. He must say, that for this large expenditure the Government was not to blame; it had been forced on the Government. In times of ease and prosperity they all knew with what facility grants of money were made; and if they did not, when in difficulty, press for reduction and relief, it was not likely that any would be obtained. Looking at the whole question, he would beg his hon. friend to withdraw his Motion. Mr. Huskisson was disposed generally to concur in the views of the noble Lord; but considering all the circumstances of the case, he should feel more satisfaction if the Motion were not pressed to a division. He thought that the time was come when the whole system of superannuations, allowances, pensions, and half-pay must, from the circumstances of the country, become a subject of investigation. The House ought to go into such an inquiry, not with reference solely to half-pay or full pay, but with reference to every kind of salary, pension, and allowance. It would be wise and good policy to do so, and the Government ought to be encouraged to take the arduous task into its own hands. He admitted that the recompense of the half-pay was well earned, but the House must look at the difficulties under which the country was placed. If, according to the statement of his right hon. friend, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, of seventeen millions expended annually only eleven millions were applied to the efficient and active service of the country, while six millions were paid for superannuation allowances, 'pensions, and half-pay, and if this sum had been increasing since 1822, it was time to consider if the whole establishment could not be gradually diminished, instead of taking any partial view. He had listened with attention to his right hon. friend, the Secretary of War, but had not clearly understood that there was any other difference between continuing the full pay Mr. R. Gordon, in reply, did not think the right hon. Gentleman had answered his objections; and he hoped that the right hon. Gentleman who spoke last would move either for a Select Committee or a Committee of the whole House, to inquire into the subject. With an understanding that the subject would be taken up by his Majesty's Ministers, or by the right hon. Gentleman, he would consent to withdraw his amendment. Mr. Secretary Peel protested against its being understood that his Majesty's Government was pledged to a motion of which no notice had been given, and of which he did not yet know the terms. As an earnest of the intentions of his Majes ty's Government with respect to salaries, I would not withdraw his Motion, unless a he would remind the House, that the distinct pledge were given that an inquiry Session before last, his right hon. friend, should be instituted into the Dead Weight. (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) intro- He would call on the right hon. Gentleduced a bill to regulate the retiring allow-man to say whether or not he would grant ances of the civil servants of the Govern-such an inquiry? If the right hon. Genment, according to the recommendation of tleman would consent, he would recomthe Finance Committee. He did not pro- mend the hon. Member to withdraw his pose to deprive any of the servants of the Motion; if not, he recommended him to Government of their retired allowances, persevere. but he proposed to deduct a per centage from all salaries to form a Superannuation Fund. But how did the House meet the views of his right hon. friend? He was unable to pass the bill. He received no support. His right hon. friend had now the subject under his consideration, and would have no objection to revive the proposition of the Session before last. Mr. Huskisson wished the hon. Member to understand that he had not pledged himself to move for any Committee, but only that he might possibly call the attention of the House to the subject, if no Member more competent to the task than himself should take it up. He thought the whole subject required revision, but he was of opinion that some better opportunity should be found than on that occasion, to go into the matter. Mr. Secretary Peel informed the House that the principle of the bill formerly introduced into the House had been applied to every person subsequently accepting office, and to all new offices. A deduction had been made from their salaries to form a fund for retiring allowances. Lord Howick hoped his hon. friend would not withdraw his Motion, unless he received a distinct pledge from the Government that it would go into a general inquiry. He regretted that the hon. Member for Westminster, and the hon. Member for Kircudbright should encourage the Government in its extravagance. The Government was ready enough to attend to recommendations similar to those. When the Chancellor of the Exchequer had brought in the bill alluded to, he had not marshalled all his forces to pass it; and he had withdrawn it after a very feeble opposition from the hon. Gentleman, who was then on the Opposition side of the House, and was now Paymaster of the Army. Since then, the right hon. Gentleman had done nothing on the subject. He had allowed a whole Session to pass away, and had made no effort to get over his defeat. He hoped that his hon. friend Mr. Maberly defended the Government. He was sure that it was ready to go fully into any such inquiry as that recommended. It was very seldom that he rose for such a purpose; but he was bound, in justice to the Government to declare, that he believed it was ready to go immediately into the investigation. He thought that the same principle that was applied to persons receiving half-pay ought to be applied universally, and that no person ought to be allowed to hold two offices, and receive two salaries. Mr. Secretary Peel could not suppose that the House would be so unjust as to require that the Ministers should pledge themselves to a Motion of which no notice had been given, and of which the terms were not known. Did the noble Lord wish to deprive officers of their half-pay? On Monday next his right hon. friend was to bring forward his view of the financial state of the country. The ordinary expenditure of the country was 11,000,000. and the Dead Weight and Pensions amounted to 6,000,000l., and was it to be supposed that his right hon. friend would allow the 6,000,000l. to escape his attention? In the absence of his right hon. friend, he could not be expected to pledge himself to any measure similar to that required by the noble Lord. Lord Howick only rose to guard himself against its being supposed that he wished to touch the half-pay of officers, or to deprive any person of the emoluments he then possessed; but he wanted a pledge that there should be no increase. Sir H. Hardinge understood the hon. Member to accuse the Government of gross partiality, in continuing the allowances of general officers while subalterns were obliged to give up their half-pay on accepting office. But the House would remember that in 1815 it was recommended that the number of general officers should be diminished; and from 378, their number then, they had been gradually reduced to 129, by which a saving had been effected of 33,000l. This betrayed no partiality to the general officers. On the Question being put on the original Motion, Mr. Hume suggested, that it would be wise in the House to withhold the grant till after the Chancellor of the Exchequer had made his financial statement. Mr. R. Gordon had no desire to press the Motion if the right hon. Member for Liverpool would undertake the inquiry. Mr. Huskisson would only pledge himself to turn his attention to the subject in the course of the Session. Lord Howick hoped the right hon. Gentleman would do so, as no person could accomplish the matter so well. The Amendment, by the leave of the House, withdrawn. The Report of the Committee of Supply was brought up. Several items were agreed to without opposition. On the Question that the House agree to the Resolution of the Committee for granting 32,000l. for Exchequer Fees, Mr. Hume took the opportunity of observing, that the quarantine establishments were at present expensive; and to express his hope that, if any vacancies occurred in them, or in any other offices of the State, that they would not be filled up. Mr. Herries believed, that his right hon. friend (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) did not need the suggestion of the hon. Member to attend to the subject he had alluded to. It had engaged the serious and careful consideration of his Majesty's Ministers. As to the Treasury, he could say that it had, to the utmost of its power, carried into execution the recommendation of the Finance Committee, with regard to salaries and superannuations. The noble Lord (Lord Howick) had done his right hon. friend injustice by accusing him of lukewarmness in regard to the bill he had brought into the House the Session before last. He knew that his right hon. friend had made the greatest exertions to get that bill through the House, but he had not been supported, with the exception of the hon. Member for Montrose, even by the Members of the Finance Committee. Resolution agreed to. On the Question that the House agree to the Resolution of the Committee to grant 60,6127. to his Majesty, to defray the expense of Volunteers, Mr. Hume expressed his surprise that this vote should be continued. If we were to have Volunteers they ought to be real Volunteers, who should pay for themselves. For his part, he thought the Government should have an opportunity to take the question into consideration, and time afforded them for carrying reductions into effect; and he would therefore move, as an Amendment, "that 30,3061.be granted for a period of six months; that is, until the 30th of June of the present year." On the Question being put, Mr. Portman said, he would give the Motion his warmest support. He expressed a hope that on the eve of a Motion by the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. W. Horton) for taking into consideration the causes of the present extent of suffering among the poorer classes, the House would not allow this last proposition, for a just and wise reduction of the Estimates, to be frittered away like the former ones. He agreed most fully with the hon. Member, that the Volunteers should perform voluntary service; and that in times like the present, unless they could be supported without such an enormous expense, the country would be better without their services. He would therefore implore hon. Members to consider the necessity for economy; and he was confident there was not a man in the House, meaning honestly and sincerely to relieve the burthens of the people, who could refuse his vote to the Amendment now proposed. Sir H. Hardinge did not mean again to trouble the House with any observations on this subject after the very protracted discussion, of more than two hours, which it had undergone on a former occasion. The Estimates, he repeated, were framed on as low a scale as they could be; and he put it to the courtesy of the hon. Member whether he would thus continue an opposition which so many majorities had already decided to be ill-founded. The House then divided-For the original Resolution 104: For the Amendment 59:-Majority 45. Original Resolutions agreed to. DUTIES OF HIGH SHERIFF.] Mr. Fysche Palmer, pursuant to notice, rose, to move for a Committee to inquire into the nature of the Duties of High Sheriff, and entered into a detail of the various complicated subjects on which a High Sheriff was expected to be conversant, and of the number of Courts in which he was supposed to preside, if he fulfilled in person the duties of his office. Among these he enumerated the presiding in the County Courts, the protection of the public as conservator of the peace, his duties as Collector of the Crown Rents, and as the officer called on to execute all writs issued within the county. All these, and many other judicial and ministerial functions, were performed by a man who was compelled to discharge a large portion of the expenses out of his own pocket, and who was liable to be prosecuted for the failure or misconduct of his officers. Every expense of the Judges of Assize was paid by the Sheriff-the table of their attendants, the coals, the beer, the wine consumed at their place of residence-all was defrayed by the property of the High Sheriff, while he was, at the same time, compelled to bring a vast number of retainers to the court town, at his own entire cost, to be employed as javelin-men, and for other purposes. To so great an extent had this gone, that a law was passed in the 13th and 14th of Charles the Second by which it was enacted, that no Sheriff should be compelled to keep a table at the Assize town for any save the members of his own family, or the judges' servants; that he was not at any time to bring forth more than forty retainers; but for the sake of decency and a proper regard to the dignity of his station, he was not to appear with less than twenty in England or twelve in Wales, to be employed as javelin-men. He had procured a return of the amount of expenses incurred in one county, and he found that they amounted to about 1,3007. while the whole of the receipts were only 6007. so that the remaining 7007. remained to be made good out of the pocket of the Sheriff. Looking at the extent of duty required from the High Sheriff, and the expenses to which he was subjected in the performance of these duties, he thought they were by much too numerous and too great to be demanded from any gentleman of ordinary fortune; and he, therefore, proposed to bring the subject under the consideration of a Select Committee, for the purpose of ascertaining to what extent the duties might be lightened and the expenses removed. He should, therefore, without troubling the House by going into any further details, move at once for a Select Committee to take into their consideration the Duties and Expenses attending the execution of the office of High Sheriff in England and Wales, with a view to devise some means to reduce or amend the same. Mr. Hudson Gurney begged the House to recollect that the office of High Sheriff was an ancient one, of very great importance, and always filled by gentlemen of rank, character, and fortune. In his opinion, if the House were to make those alterations and reformations which the hon. Member seemed to aim at in his speech, the result would be, that the office must fall into the hands of men in a lower and humbler rank of society than those who had hitherto filled it with so much advantage to the country. The Motion of the hon. Member seemed to go to the reformation of points so extremely frivolous, that it would be worse than idle to give it the support of the House. Motion agreed to. Committee appointed. STATE OF THE POOR.] Mr. W. Horton then rose to make his promised Motion for a Committee of the whole House to inquire into the State of the Poor in the United Kingdom. The hon. Member commenced by observing, that he preferred moving for a Committee of the whole House rather than a Select Committee, because he |