The COURT. I will permit it.

Mr. MERRICK. Has he not been fully examined upon it?

The COURT. I shall allow it to go in.

Q. Was not that man's name Furey?-A. I don't think it was.

Q. Did he not live in Omaha?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. At all events he interrogated you as to what you knew ?—A. Yes, sir.

Q. And you told him?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. And then you came on here as a witness. You were subpoenaed, were you ?—A. I was subpoenaed and came on.

Q. And you remained here three months?-A. Something about three months. Q. And you were in that room probably twenty times, and during that number of times you never mentioned this particular conversation which you have undertaken to give in the words of John W. Dorsey, did you ?—A. I did not.

Then the examination went on as to how many witnesses were congregated in the room when I examined him. What he told me I wrote out, and at the second trial Colonel Bliss asked the question. Now, Mr. Woodward has testified that there were abstracts of these cases prepared and that the post-office inspectors furnished the reports. Colonel Bliss testified that the inspectors furnished their reports of the testimony of the people to be examined, and that he examined the witnesses from those reports. That was his answer given to you here the day before yesterday, that he had examined some of the witnesses himself, that he had put them before the grand jury, and that he was guided by the testimony taken down by the post-office inspectors. If that were the case, then I suppose Colonel Bliss will tell us how it was that he failed to ask that witness that question.

Mr. BLISS. May I answer that now? It was because I had before me Mr. McLellan's sworn statement by which I examined him; which was a statement taken and transmitted by Post-Office Inspector Siebold, and in which McLellan did not state any such matter as that which he subsequently swore to on the second trial. I went all over McLellan's testimony; his statement of what he could testify to, with that affidavit before me, and he never lisped a word about that matter that he testi fied to on the second trial. That is my answer. There [indicating it in a printed document] is the affidavit I examined him by.

The WITNESS. (Looking at the affidavit.) I don't know how many statements he had, whether he had one or a dozen. I do know that the man was interrogated by Colonel Bliss and was examined at the second trial, that Colonel Bliss examined him and that he made this statement and said in open court that he had never been examined by Colonel Bliss on this point-told that to Colonel Bliss himself. And I mention that to show that Colonel Bliss is mistaken when he says that my testimony about the witnesses is false. I correct him from the record.

By the CHAIRMAN:

Q. Did Coll McLellan state to you that he had made this statement to Mr. Siebold, the inspector?-A. I have read his testimony given under oath in open court where he was examined by Colonel Bliss himself.

Q. Did he state to you before he went into court that he had made that particular statement to Siebold?-A. Oh, yes. He said he wondered why he had not been asked about it. He told me when I examined him privately that he was surprised, and when he gave me the names of the people that were around the fire he gave me the name of a man called Cabell, and some other names, and I sent Joe Pennell out to hunt them up, but they were scattered all over the country and Pennell was able to find only Cabell. Now, Colonel Bliss has designated this man Cabell as a bad witness, a witness as to whom Judge Wylie

said it was an unfortunate thing that we examined him. I do not know whether Judge Wylie said that or not. I do not want to express an opinion about that. The judge can tell himself whether he did or not. But whether Judge Wylie said so or not is immaterial to this question. Colonel Bliss says that I deserve the credit and that he accords me the credit of bringing before the court the witness Cabell. Very well. On page 2666 of the record of the second trial Mr. Cabell gave his testimony. He corroborated all that Coll McLellan had said, gave the time and the circumstances and also another conversation that he had with John W. Dorsey; all of it bearing severely upon John W. Dorsey, Stephen W. Dorsey, and Thomas J. Brady; the purport of it being that there was a ring here in Washington by which the service was to be increased, the number of trips, the price, &c. Of course I must accept whatever Colonel Bliss gives me in the way of credit. I did not mention that matter with any idea of claiming credit, but I mentioned it with the idea of showing to this committee the amount of labor that I had to perform and what my duties were in connection with the case. But if I was wrong in bringing Mr. Cabell here, if I committed a grave mistake in that, then my superior in the case, an old, able, well-tried lawyer like Colonel Bliss, should never have put that witness on the stand and examined him. If he wanted to throw upon me the blame of bringing that witness here to testify, he might have been gracious enough to have allowed me to examine him in court and shouldered the entire responsibility. It won't do for Colonel Bliss to come to this committee and cast reflections upon me on that ground, when he himself is the man who examined this witness before the jury. And I say that Mr. Cabell's testimony never was attacked, and the colonel cannot point to a page in this record that will show that his testimony was attacked, good, bad, or indifferent, outside of the insinuations of the defendants' counsel, and of course they were welcome to these insinuations, for they made them concerning everybody.

Colonel Bliss denies that he wanted to let Mr. Dorsey escape. He has read you his letter to Mr. Merrick about my testimony upon that subject and Mr. Merrick's reply. Now, I never have said that Colonel Bliss wanted to let Mr. Dorsey escape. I only told you what Mr. Merrick narrated to me in a conversation between us; I do not wonder that it angered Colonel Bliss, but that was no reason why he should fire at me. He could have attacked the man who said it if he was not afraid. Instead of that he has attacked me, the youngest lawyer in the case; and he was not satisfied with attacking me alone; he wanted to vent his spite at every body that had anything to do with the case. I testified in this case coolly, and without any feeling against him at all. I did not want to say anything derogatory to Colonel Bliss, but I did not want this committee or anybody else to be able to accuse me of suppressing testimony or not telling the whole truth that I was subpoenaed and sworn to tell, so I told it. Colonel Bliss says that Judge Wylie says such a charge against him was preposterous. I don't know whether Judge Wylie said that or not, but I presume if he were brought here he would say so, for how would the judge know whether Colonel Bliss wanted to let Mr. Dorsey go or not? I cannot imagine what he could know about it. He took the case that was brought before him. But did not Mr. Merrick corroborate what I said? Did not Mr. Merrick tell me what I testified to? There was no untruth in that. Mr. Merrick does not deny that he told me something of the kind. He does not deny it; therefore that part of my testimony is unchallenged. Colonel Bliss says that he never dreamed of letting Dorsey go; that he never heard of it until it

was "trotted out" in my testimony before this committee under the inspiration of Brewster Cameron. And to show the feeling that actuated the colonel, he mentioned Brewster Cameron as having inspired me, and then dashed into the jury bribery cases and said repeatedly to this committee that the names he heard mentioned in connection with the bribery case were those of Brewster Cameron, Ker, and a lawyer named Falls. He repeated that to the committee, and when closely pressed after my statement, he reluctantly admitted that he heard also the name of Mr. Merrick mentioned in connection with it. Now, I don't know whether he was afraid of Mr. Merrick; but if not, I do not see why he left Mr. Merrick's name out unless it was because of his strong desire to hurt me to stab Brewster Cameron by giving the idea that we were actuated by improper motives. As I said before, I did not know that Colonel Bliss and Mr. Brewster Cameron were enemies. I want to say this right here: neither the Attorney-General, nor any person connected with the Department of Justice, or with any Department of the Government of the United States, neither Brewster Cameron nor any liv. ing soul, ever instigated me to testify before this committee. No living soul inspired me to testify before this committee, and if anybody had inspired me he would have simply inspired me to tell what I did tell— the plain, simple truth. Now, I said I did not know what could actuate Colonel Bliss to make this attack upon Mr. Brewster Cameron, but I have thought the matter over and concluded that as Brewster Cameron is thousands of miles away from here, attending to his public duties, and as Colonel Bliss knew that he was out of the city and incapable of defending himself before this committee at present, the colonel thought it would be safe to attack him. Now, inasmuch as Colonel Bliss has said that my name was mixed up with that bribery matter, and that this committee ought to investigate the whole matter, I proposed to tell the committee what I know about it.

During the trial Mr. Cameron came to the office of Mr. Merrick, one afternoon after court, and said that a man named Bowen had come to him and told him that Mr. William Dickson, the foreman of the jury, wished to see him about something connected with the jury-some attempt to bribe them. Mr. Cameron said that the Attorney-General was away and that he did not want to go and see Mr. Dickson without advice from Mr. Merrick. Mr. Merrick, without waiting to hear all that Brewster Cameron had to say, said to him, "Go, by all means, to see Mr. Dickson." Mr. Cameron said, "He is the foreman of the jury; I do not think I have any right to talk to him, and it may be misinterpreted." Mr. Merrick was angry at Mr. Cameron's hesitation, and at some remark that Mr. Cameron made about hearing that Mr. Dickson was not a trustworthy man-I cannot recall the words, but it was some sort of a dispar aging remark that excited and angered Mr. Merrick. Mr. Merrick said, "I tell you Mr. Dickson is a high-toned, honorable gentleman, and he wants to see you, no doubt, to give you some information that will be of benefit to the Government about an attempt to bribe the jury." At that time there were rumors circulating in the newspapers and around the streets that there were attempts to bribe the jury. Mr. Cameron still hesitated to go, but Mr. Merrick said, "I tell you to go and see him." I coincided with what Mr. Merrick said. Mr. Cameron again made some remark about his not wishing to go. I told Mr. Cameron that I thought it was his duty to go; that if there were any questions at all about it he could refer to Mr. Bowen, to Judge Hoover, of Arizona, to Mr. Merrick, and myself, to show that he went to Mr. Dickson with proper motives. Finally, Mr. Cameron agreed to go, and I thought he

had gone. I found out afterwards, however, that Mr. Cameron did not go. At that time he was under orders to proceed to California, and had his ticket in his pocket and was to leave, I think, by the 7 o'clock train, and I found that instead of going to see Mr. Dickson he went there and called away from Mr. Dickson a man named Bowen, who was also to go west with Mr. Cameron, it being arranged that Mr. Bowen and Mr. Cameron should go out there together upon some business connected with the Department. Mr. Cameron walked in and called Mr. Bowen out, and they went down to the depot and got on the train, went out west, and were gone three or four weeks, and Mr. Cameron never really said a word to Mr. Dickson concerning the case. There is the gentleman [Mr. Dickson] sitting there now; I know he will be manly enough to say so.

Mr. DICKSON to the committee. Do you wish me to reply?

Mr. VAN ALSTYNE. He is willing that you should reply. You have been sworn as a witness, have you not?

Mr. DICKSON. No, sir.

Mr. VAN ALSTYNE. Then your reply cannot be accepted.

The WITNESS. I do not want to anticipate his reply. I had nothing to do with the matter beyond that. Mr. Merrick and I were together. He will tell you the same thing that I have told you. Why Colonel Bliss should want to mix up our names in that connection I cannot imagine, and his attack on Mr. Cameron I can only account for by one other matter, which I propose to tell you. It appears that there was a man of some notoriety and of rather an unsavory reputation, named Paul Strobach, who was a United States marshal, and after the President had nominated him for the position of marshal, and his name had gone to the Senate, there were some charges preferred aginst him by the Department of Justice, I think through the instrumentality of Mr. Brewster Cameron, who was pushing the Strobach case at that time, so far as I could see by the newspapers. One Friday afternoon I was going over to Philadelphia, and, before going into the car, Colonel Bliss said to me: "I want to come and have a talk with you." He was going over in the same train. He went in the parlor car, and I went in the smoking car. During the course of the journey over, Colonel Bliss came back to the smoking car, and took a seat beside me. He said to me: "Your friend Brewster Cameron is getting himself into a great deal of trouble." I wanted to know what was the matter. "Well," the colonel said, "here is this Strobach case; Brewster Cameron will get himself into trouble about that case." I said, "Why, what is the matter? Is not Strobach guilty? If he is guilty he ought to be prosecuted." "Well," said Colonel Bliss, "after the President has made the nomination and it has gone to the Senate it is no time for the Department of Justice to make an attack upon a man. If they had any attack to make they ought to have made it before he was nominated." I said, 66 Yes; but, colonel, suppose they didn't know it before he was nominated; what then?" "Well," said he, "after he was nominated there ought not to be an attack made upon him." "Well," I said, "he is a bad man, and I think he ought to be prosecuted." I cannot exactly recall what I said in that connection, but I said that he ought to be prosecuted. Colonel Bliss became somewhat excited and angry, and he said, "Well, it just amounts to this: Brewster Cameron will have to quit the Department of Justice. The Attorney-General will have to turn Brewster Cameron out or the Attorney-General himself will be turned out, and it is only a question of a very short time until the whole thing will be brought about. Now, I do not want to see Brewster Cameron turned out, but

if this thing goes on, out he goes." Well, I hadn't been used to getting Cabinet secrets [laughter], and I was a good deal surprised. Now, let Mr. Bliss deny that if he wants to.

Mr. BLISS. I do not want to deny it, sir. There is my letter to the Attorney-General himself and the Attorney-General's answer. That states my position in the matter. I will send it to the committee. It goes over the whole matter. The general statement that I made was that Mr. Brewster Cameron had, twice in succession, preferred charges against men nominated by the President on the recommendation of the Department of Justice, which charges were based upon grounds which existed before the men had been nominated and on evidence then in the Department of Justice, and I told Mr. Brewster himself that no administration could go on in that way; that either they must make some arrangement by which, before the men were nominated, charges then in possession of the Department should be brought to the attention of the President, or that they should not, after they had neglected to make the charges known, bring them forward after the nominations had been made by the President.

Mr. VAN ALSTYNE. Is it the custom of the Executive to communicate to his Cabinet the names of gentlemen that he proposes to nominate for certain offices?

Mr. BLISS. The practice is this. Every nomination to an office under the Department of Justice that the President makes to the Senate, comes with the recommendation of the Department of Justice to the President that so and so be nominated. All the papers as to that can didate, and all the papers as to the other candidates, are sent over from the Department.

Mr. VAN ALSTYNE. And your comment was made upon the theory that this nomination had been recommended beforehand by the Department of Justice, and that after it had been communicated to the Senate, the Department of Justice, through captiousness or for a wicked purpose, antagonized it?

Mr. BLISS. No, sir; not from captiousness or for a wicked purpose. My point was this: That probably when Mr. Brewster concluded to make the nomination, he did not know that this information was in the possession of Brewster Cameron, and that Brewster Cameron did not know that the nomination was to be made; and I said that they ought to put a stop to such misunderstandings.

Mr. VAN ALSTYNE. Then, where an improper nomination was made by the President, by accident or by reason of his not possessing a knowl edge of the facts, would you go to the extent of holding that an officer of the Cabinet should withhold information from the President as to the character of the nominee?

Mr. BLISS. Not at all. My correspondence will show that I said distinctly that the prosecution against Strobach should be continued, but I said that the scandal arose from the information being in the Department of Justice and yet the Department allowing the President to make the nomination without giving him that information. I had had no com munication with the President on the subject, but I said, on my own judgment, that that sort of thing could not go on, and that if it did go on the result would be, first, a request for the dismissal of Brewster Cameron, that, as Mr. Brewster was quite friendly and loyal to Mr. Cameron, he would probably decline to make the removal, and that thus there would come about a break in the Cabinet, which I wished to avoid. By Mr. FYAN:

Q. (To Mr. Ker, the witness.) How do you know the fact that Mr.