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they not?-A. Yes, sir; I think so. He swears that the return is true and correct. Now, I failed to discover one item that I considered was true and correct. The emolument sheets are open to you, of course, and perhaps you may view them in a different light from what I did.
Q. Did you make any estimate or calculation from the emolument returus of the amounts of fees that the marshal had returned ?-A. No; I did not, particularly; but from memory I should say that it did not exceed $2,500.
Q. How much would the earnings in the torpedo cases really amount to in your judgment ?-A. As I said before, I think the whole amount of the torpedo business would be more than $70,000.
Q. And the marshal, you say, accounts for only $2,500 ?-A. I don't think be accounts for much. That business was ignored entirely up to the time I have stated. I think I am the only man that served any of those processes that he made any return of, and that, as I have said, was not until 1880.
By the CHAIRMAN: Q. Who is Mr. Roberts ?-A. Mr. W. B. Roberts is a brother of the original inventor of tbis torpedo. The inventor is dead. The two together were known as the Roberts Torpedo Company.
Q. Where does Mr. W. B. Roberts live?-A. He lives at Titusville, and he is the surviving partner of the firm.
By Mr. VAN ALSTYNE: Q. Is his sole business running this patent-right, and making sale of torpedoes ?-A. He is also a banker, and he has become very wealthy through the torpedo business.
By the CHAIRMAN: Q. When did the patent expire?-A. I think it expired in 1882, but possibly it was 1883.
Q. Do you know whether that company owe the Government anything for fees that they have not paid yet 1-A. I think they do. Of course, though, I have no means of knowing. I do not know whether Mr. Hall has collected the money and has not returned it to the Gov. ernment, or whether Mr. Roberts sold out. I don't know anything about that. I only know and state that it stopped somewhere between Mr. Roberts and the Treasury Department.
Q. It has not got to the Treasury ?-A. No; it has not got there. One hundred and forty-three dollars and seventy cents has got there. That was in 1878.
Q. When did you give information to the Government of Mr. Hall's transactions in this torpedo business ?--A. It will be two years ago next June or July
Q. State what you did in respect to that.-A. I simply made the statement to Attorney-General Brewster that Mr. Hall's accounts to the Treasury Department were $200,000 short.
Q. When was that?-A. As I have said, it will be two years in either June or July.
Q. State what was done in reference to the matter.-A. Mr. Brewster was very busy that morning; he had just come from Philadelphia-1 had been waiting for him five days—he had just come from Philadelphia, and he said that that was Cabinet meeting day, so that he did not have time to talk with me then, and he wanted to go back to Philadelphia that night, and he referred me to Mr. Brewster Cameron. I went to Mr. Cameron's office, and he was not in, consequently I did not see him.
Brewster Cameron followed me back within ten days to Pittsburgh and told Mr. Hall that a man named Brown had been on here and had reported that he was short. Mr. Hall then turned around and accused me of trying to blackmail him for $10,000.
Q. State what foundation, if any, there was for that charge.-A. None whatever, sir.
Q. Did you ever ask any money of him ?-A. No, sir. I borrowed money from Mr. Hall, and Mr. Hall has paid me all the money that was due me with the exception that there was a question whether I was entitled to mileage in cases where I had traveled to serve writs and could not find the parties. I never received anything for that at all.
Q. Did you ever demand of him, or intimate to him that you wanted, $10,000, and that if he did not give it you would report his delinquencies !-A. I never did, sir, do anything of that kind; never demanded money or anything else. He alleges that I made that demand in a letter that I wrote to him.
Q. It seems that some one stated that you had asked Mr. Hall for $10,000 as “hush money," and that Hall said that if he owed the Gov. ernment anything he would pay it; is that correct?-A. There was never any such talk between us at all. I never demanded any money of him, nor he never offered me any to keep quiet.
Q. State what further transpired with reference to the information you gave the Attorney-General or Mr. Brewster Cameron.-A. That was all. I gare no information, any more than that I made a statement that Mr. Hall was that much short. The Attorney-General referred me to his special agent, Mr. Brewster Cameron, but he was not at home, so I did not see him; and I never saw him from that day to this. The Pittsburg press took up the cudgels in Hall's behalf, and I saw that I could not battle against them and the Department of Justice, too, and I just ignored the thing.
Q. Did you ever ask anything of the Department of Justice or of any of the agents of the Department !-A. I simply asked them what they were paying. I asked them if the old law was still in force by which the informer would get a certain percentage.
Q. The moiety law 1-A. Yes, sir.
Q. What did they say to you -A. They told me it was not in operation.
Q. Did you offer to withhold or to disclose any information in consideration of the payment of any sum ?-A. No, sir; I did not.
Q. When you were informed that the moiety law was no longer in force, were you still ready and willing to make a statement on the subject of the management of the marshal's office ?-A. I certainly was, or I would not have made the statement broadcast against a Government officer that, in my estimation, he was $200,000 short in his accounts.
Q. Did you offer to any one connected with the Government to prove that shortage ?-A. No, sir; for the reason that I could not get an audience with them. Mr. Brewster, as I have said, was very anxious to attend a Cabinet meeting that day, and after that he had to go back to Philadelphia.
By Mr. VAN ALSTYNE: Q. When you went to the Attorney-General's office, was it your purpose to communicate to him what knowledge you had upon this subject ?-A. Yes, sir.
By the CHAIRMAN: Q. State what you did say to him ; state all that transpired; who introduced you to the Attorney-General ?-A. I took a letter from a gen. tleman who occupies a position in the Treasury Department; I forget now just what the position is, but he was the party to whom I thought it was proper to go to find out whether the Government was paying any. thing or not for information of this kind. He was unable to tell me, but be wrote a letter to the Attorney-General introducing me and stat. ing that I claimed that Mr. Hall was $200,000 short. I sent that letter in to Mr. Brewster and he told his attendant to show me in. He simply asked me if my name was Brown. I told him it was. Said he, 6 Yon think Mr. Hall is this amount of money behind in his accounts?" I told him I thought he was. “Well," said he, “ I have not time to attend to it now. You will have to go and see Brewster Cameron, who is my agent."
Q. Who was the gentleman who gave you that letter to the Attorney General ?--A. I cannot call him by name.
Q. Was he one of the accounting officers of the Treasury ?-A. Yes, sir.
Q. What conversation had you had previously with that gentleman ? -A. I simply asked him the question whether the Government was paying anything or not. He told me that this moiety law bad been re. pealed, but said that if I would come in the next morning he would final out in the mean time whether anything could be done. I did go in the next morning and then he told me that nothing could be done under the law; that that law bad been repealed, but that Attorney-General Brewster had the right to make any bargain with me that he saw fit with regard to the matter, and he sat down and wrote this letter of in. troduction to the Attorney-General, stating that I claimed that Marshal Hall was that much back in his accounts, and I presented that letter to the Attorney-General.
Q. How did this gentleman know about that; from what you told him 1-A. From what I had told him.
Q. Wbat was said between you and the Government officials as to Hall's emoluments 1-A. They told me that according to his returns the office had not been self-sustaining; in other words, that it never had paid Mr. Hall the $6,000 a year that he was entitled to and any. thing over, and that they thought it strange that that should be so. And when I examined his emolument returns I found that statement to be true with the exception of one year, 1878.
Q. Was your opinion as to Marshal Hall's accounts confirmed by your examination of those returns ?-A. Yes, sir; and my statement was made immediately the next day after examining the sheets, from the fact that my knowledge of the business and my examination of those sheets confirmed to my mind the idea that Mr. Hall was that far behind.
Q. Did you have any conversation with Mr. Bayne, your Representative ?-A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did he offer to introduce you to the Attorney-General I–A. Ho introduced me to Judge Lawrence, the Comptroller, but that was only for the purpose of my getting permission to examine tliose emolument returns.
Q. What was said about the matter to Judge Lawrence? Did you make any statement to him 1-A. None, at all; I simply requested that I should be allowed to examine the returus.
Q. Did you inform Mr. Bayne in reference to this defalcation or shortage of Marshal Hall ?-A. No, sir; not as to any particular amount. I told him tbat I was surprised at the condition of those emolument returns. Possibly I might have mentioned the amount, I would uot say
for certain, but I think not, because I had no reason for talking to him about it.
Q. Did you inform him as to the nature of the business that was being transacted by the office?-A. No, sir.
Q. Did Mr. Bayne offer to assist you in the matter !—A. Nothing more than in getting at the emolument returns.
Q. He showed a willingness to assist you in getting at those returns? -A. Yes, sir.
Q. Did he offer to introduce you to the Attorney-General !—No, sir, he did not.
Q. Do you know whether Marshal Hall had anything to do with bringing about a settlement between you and the Roberts Torpedo Company !-A. I do not think he did, sir, at all.
Q. Did Mr. Hall ever ask you to postpone your suit against the Roberts Company 1-A. No, sir, he did not. He told me that I had better go to Crawford County and commence the suit under the contract before the six years had expired, which you will find by examination was nearly up. I think I had just one day to spare. He said that he did not think Mr. Roberts would be in Pittsburgh until after the six years was up. I waited until the very last day.
Q. Do you know whether Mr. Hall has offered to pay any money to the Government recently in settlement of his accounts 1-A. No, sir; I know nothing about that at all; I have not seen Mr. Hall in two years.
Q. Do you know what Mr. Hall's financial condition is ?-A. I do not.
Q. Do you live in his vicinity ?-A. I am living about 15 miles from where he lives.
Q. Do you know who his bondsmen are ?-A. I do not.
Q. Did you ever have any conversation with Hall himself in reference to his accounts !-A. Yes, sir; I had a bet with Mr. Hall at one time. I offered to bet a suit of clothes againsta plug bat that he couldn't find any two entries in his docket in the Roberts cases that were correct; and I requested him to turn to any two that he was a mind to. I took down the docket and turned to two just as it happened, went over to the clerk's office and got the writs and brought them in just to convince him; and in one case he was $100 short and in the other case something like that of $53. But I never got the hat.
Q. Did he show you any case in which the entries were correct?-A. No, sir; he did not.
Q. When was this conversation ?-A. Three or four years ago; that was when I went in there as a deputy.
Q. How long after that did you remain as a deputy in his office ?A. Nearly two years.
By Mr. VAN ALSTYNE: Q. In the two cases to which you called his attention did he make any explanation ?-A. No; he did not. He said there was a mistake somewhere; I thought so, too.
Q. Did you ever bring those matters to the attention of the district attorney 1-A. No, sir; I never did.
Q. Did you ever have any conversation with District Attorney Stone about it 1-A. No, sir.
Q. Or with his assistants ? A. No, sir. Well, I think I did, too. I think that Mr. Woods and I talked it over, because he made out my bill of particulars.
Q. What conversation did you have with Mr. Woods with regard to
these accounts ?-A. It has been so long ago that I cannot repeat it word for word, but it was mutually understood between the two that things were transacted in a very peculiar way. Mr. Woods didn't tell me that he knew that Mr. Hall was a defaulter, nor did I tell him ; we simply talked the matter over. Mr. Perkins and I have done the same thing.
Q. Did you ever bave any conversation with Mr. Perkins with regard to bringing that suit against the torpedo company?-A. Yes, sir.
Q. What was that 1-A. Well, Mr. Perkins and I entered into an agreement at one time by which he was to receive 20 or 25 per cent. for collecting it. In the first place Mr. Perkins took me to Mr. Stone; he told me that he thought he would be a very good man to consult and that he could effect a settlement through Paterson. Mr. Stone saw Paterson and he communicated with Mr. Roberts, or Thomas, or some of those parties, and the supposition was that we could get a settlement in some of those cases; but after Paterson had corresponded with the Roberts Company he told me that it was no use; that they would not do anything; that they claimed they had paid me all that they owed me.
Q. Did you make any contract with Mr. Stone with regard to the case ?-A. I did.
Q. What was the pature of it ?-A. That he was to collect my claim at 20 per cent. or 25 per cent., and then after we went into Crawford County he withdrew and I employed some other attorneys. Then I made another contract with Mr. Perkins, offering him 20 or 25 per cent. if he could bring about a settlement. I think that contract was drawn up by Mr. Adams. I know I got a copy of the contract, but he never did anything
By Mr. ADAMS: Q. Will you produce the contract ?-A. Yes, sir; I can produce a copy taken from a letter-press which they had carried with them. I would not say positively that Mr. Adams drew that contract, but my impression is that he did.
Q. What was the substance of it 1-A. Well, for his assistance, such as he could render, in helping me to collect that bill, he was to receive 20 or 25 per cent.
By Mr. VAN ALSTYNE: Q. Was Perkins at that time a Government officer?-A. Yes, sir. Q. What was he -A. The same as he is now.
Q. This claim was for your fees as agent of the torpedo company ?A. Yes, sir; the oid affair.
Q. And for which you claimed something like $22,000 ?-A. Yes, sir.
Q. Has any Government officer called upon you, since you made a statement to the Attorney-General, to furnish any information upon that matter?—A. No, sir; they have not.
Q. Has the district attorney ?-A. No, sir; no person. The fighting has been done principally through the press, similar to the statement that is going the rounds now that Mr. Perkins got this cipher book by its being left as collateral security for my board. That has been pub. lished in all the papers.
Q. That is not true, you say?-A. Well, I rather think not. I brought a man on at my own expense to try to have that matter straightened out.
The CHAIRMAN. When Mr. Woods was here he left a book with me. Here it is. [Producing it.] I don't know whether you recognize it or