Mr. WILKINS. I would say it would cover any restaurant if it covered two people at stools, if it were a restaurant. Senator THURMOND. In other words, you feel this bill covers everybody who sells to the public? Mr. WILKINS. Senator, we would hope that it covers everybody. The previous question suggested that there might be some limitations on coverage under the present basing of the bill and under its language. What we on our side of the table shoot for is absolute and complete coverage. We don't believe that anybody ought to walk into any public establishment in this country offering services to the people and be refused because of his or her color, whether it is a 1-chair barbershop or a 50-chair barbershop. Senator THURMOND. You understand, of course, since this bill springs from, or the basis of it arises from the interstate commerce clause, there would have to be a burden on interstate commerce. Mr. WILKINS. Yes; I understand that this provision offers certain limitations. I am speaking only-your questions were directed toward specific situations, irrespective of the basis of the law. I am trying to stay within the limitations of the act. Senator THURMOND. Mr. Wilkins, suppose a man operates a restaurant. He has a garden and a farm. He grows all of his produce; he buys nothing from out of the State. All of his customers are from the town. Do you think that this bill would cover him? Or would he have the right to exclude someone if he wanted to? Mr. WILKINS. He would have the right to obey the provisions of the bill. And if the provisions of the bill did not cover him in all of his activities in the maintenance of his establishment, then he would obviously be outside of the coverage. I only ask that whatever form this bill is passed-and we hope it will be passed in its maximum form-that all people subject to it will be held accountable. Senator THURMOND. I understand that. I am asking if this bill would cover the type case I just mentioned. Mr. WILKINS. Senator, it seems to me that would be up to the Senators to determine, and the lawyers and interpreters of the commerce clause. Senator THURMOND. Suppose he opened himself to the public but he didn't buy anything in interstate commerce, no goods whatever. He produced it all on his farm and in his garden. And those who patronized him lived in the town where he operated the restaurant. There was no interstate trade. Would this bill cover him? Mr. WILKINS. Senator, I think this is one of those hypothetical questions to which I referred in my testimony. I would say that it is one of those that would have to be determined by you on the floor in defining the terms of the bill that you would act upon. It certainly would come out in the legislation as passed. If this gentleman in truth grew all of his vegetables in his backyard or his nearby plot, and if he in truth catered only to the townspeople, and no outsider came from afar to partake of his fare, then he might not be covered. Senator THURMOND. Then he could turn down anybody he wanted to? Mr. WILKINS. Anybody who applied who was not a member of— who lived in that town; let's say. Senator THURMOND. Mr. Chairman, the bell has rung. I raise the point. I might say I have only gotten started with the testimony of the witness. I presume he will come back tomorrow and complete his testimony. Senator MONRONEY. Would the Senator suspend for one moment? We have other witnesses scheduled for tomorrow. It may be necessary to work out a return that would be convenient for the witness as well as for the committee. Would you be available tomorrow? Senator MONRONEY. Would it be more convenient to take you later? I Mr. WILKINS. I am going to be here on Thursday at 2 o'clock. I am scheduled at 2 o'clock for the House Judiciary Committee. could come Thursday morning. Senator THURMOND. Mr. Chairman, almost the full 2 hours, not quite all, was spent in hearing one side. I have some rather penetrating questions which I would like to propound which will bring out the other side of this case, I hope. And so I would request that the witness be returned and that I be given an opportunity to continue, if not tomorrow then some other date. Senator MONRONEY. The Chair would suggest that, subject to the approval of the chairman of the committee, we schedule Mr. Wilkins for 9 a.m. on Thursday morning. In that way we will be able to accommodate Mr. Wilkins and perhaps the other witness as well. If necessary, we might even split the testimony so Mr. Wilkins can be excused and the other witnesses could participate in part of that time. Senator THURMOND. I wish to thank the Chair. Senator MONRONEY. Will that be agreeable? Senator MONRONEY. The committee will stand in recess until 9:15 tomorrow morning in this room. (Whereupon, at 12:04 p.m., the committee was recessed, to reconvene at 9:15 a.m., July 23, 1963.) HEARINGS BEFORE THE COMMITTEE ON COMMERCE EIGHTY-EIGHTH CONGRESS FIRST SESSION ON S. 1732 A BILL TO ELIMINATE DISCRIMINATION IN PUBLIC ACCOMMODATIONS AFFECTING INTERSTATE COMMERCE 21-544 PART 2 JULY 23, 24, 25, 26, 29, 30, 31; AUGUST 1 AND 2, 1963 Serial 27 Printed for the use of the Committee on Commerce U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE For sale by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Printing Office UNITED STATES OF AMERICA CONTENTS Pages 1-686 are contained in part 1 of these hearings. Pages 687-1524 are contained in part 2. Text of S. 1732 and amendments.. Agency comments: Comptroller General of the United States (3), July 29, 1963.. Page 2 Department of Health, Education, and Welfare, August 9, 1963. 10 11 Department of State, July 12, 1963_ 12 Federal Aviation Agency, July 19, 1963- 12 General Services Administration, July 26, 1963. 13 Interstate Commerce Commission, July 9, 24, and 31, 1963- 15 16 7896122356 ALPHABETICAL LIST OF WITNESSES AND DATE OF Statement of- Allen, Jr., Hon. Ivan, mayor of Atlanta, Ga. (July 26). 861 359 Bennett, Hon. Bruce, attorney general of Arkansas, Little Rock, Ark. 519 Blake, Dr. Eugene Carson, stated clerk, United Presbyterian Church Bryant, Hon. Farris, Governor of Florida, Tallahassee, Fla. (July 29)_ 811 811 1137 917 619 1098 Cooper, Hon. John Sherman, U.S. Senator from the State of Kentucky, 189 17 811 Foss, Hon. Joe, commissioner, American Football League, Waldorf- 557 Frick, Ford, commissioner of baseball, 30 Rockefeller Plaza, New 539 Garner, Dr. Albert, president, Florida Baptist Institute and Seminary, 1147 Griswold, Hon. Erwin N., Commissioner, U.S. Civil Rights Commis- 769 Hart, Hon. Philip A., U.S. Senator from the State of Michigan, Senate 180 Hicks, Sam H., Eagle Hurst Ranch, Huzzah, Mo. (July 12). 344 |