Mr. MERRICK. Who did?

WITNESS. Mrs. Surratt.

Mr. MERRICK. Just state what was said, or the substance of it, not your understanding of what was said, or your failure to understand what was said.

WITNESS. I do not wish to state one solitary word more than I am compelled to.

We called upon the court, and the court told the witness that he was compelled to answer, and he finally did give a reluctant answer.

was put by the court:

This question

State what was said, as far as you recollect, whether you understood it or not.
WITNESS. She tried to draw my attention to something.

Mr. MERRICK. No matter what she tried to do. State what she did say and did do. WITNESS. She finally came out and asked me about some shooting-irons that were there. Now, this makes one feel very much as the prisoner did I read you about, in reference to the false alibi, where the man said when the jury went out, he felt such a chill come over him as he never had felt before. She finally came out and asked him about some shooting irons that were there.

Q. Where? A. At Surrattsville, as I supposed.

WITNESS. As well as I recollect, in speaking of the shooting irons, she told me to have them ready.

This was on the day of the murder, gentlemen-on the afternoon of that fatal day. How did she know that her son had concealed these shooting irons where they now lay in that secret room that even Mr. Lloyd had not known?

As well as I recollect, in speaking of the shooting irons, she told me to have them ready; that they would be called for or wanted soon, I forget now which. Either expression sounded to me as if it amounted to the same thing, for I was satisfied.

What was he satisfied about? He was satisfied that she knew of these secret arms. That she knew her son had concealed these arms. That, gentlemen, is not drawing any long inference from this evidence. Is it not a fair statement of it? What do you say about it? What will you say when you go before your God about it? What do you think about it now?

Q. Now state what you said to her? A. When she made this remark, I told her I was very uneasy about those things being there; that I had understood the house was going to be searched, and I did not want to have those things there; that I had a great notion to have them taken out and buried, or done something with.

Buried! as you bury a murdered corpse. Buried! Why buried, if they are innocent things?

Q. What did she say then? A. The conversation then dropped on that, and turned on John Surratt. I told her I had understood that the soldiers were after John to arrest him for going to Richmond. I had understood that he had gone there. She laughed very heartily at the idea of anybody going to Richmond and back again in six days, and remarked that he must be a very smart man indeed to do it.

Q. Anything more? A. That was about the substance of the conversation that passed between Mrs. Surratt and myself at that interview. It did not last longer than between five and ten minutes.

Q. Did you see her any more from that time until the 14th of April, the day of the assassination? A. She was there on the evening of the Friday of the assassination, I think. Now we are down to the day of the murder. She comes there again, and what occurs? The evidence of the Tuesday's proceedings we have gone through with; let us see what she did upon the day of the murder.

Q. What persons did you find at home when you got there? A. I found a good many gentlemen there I suppose some ten or twelve. I saw there, among others, Mrs. Surratt and this man. Weichmann.

Q. State if you then had any conversation with Mrs. Surratt; and if so, on what part of your premises, and what that conversation was. A. When I drove up in my buggy to the back yard, Mrs. Surratt came out to meet me. She handed me a package, and told me, as well as I remember, to get the guns, or those things-I really forget now which, though my impression is that "guns" was the expression she made use of-and a couple of bottles of whiskey, and give them to whoever should call for them that night.

What are you going to do with that evidence, gentlemen? Will you brush it away? If so, when you come out I hope you will tell our fellow-citizens why; that you will explain it, and let it be known to the world. She gave the

witness a couple of bottles of whiskey and told him to give them to whoever should call for them that night. Why the guns? Why the field-glass? Why the cartridge-box? Why that field-glass taken by her from the city that day? Why the bottles of whiskey, to be called for that night? Who was to call for them that night? I go further now, and show what became of the package she took from the buggy.

Q. You speak of a package which she showed you at that time. not notice the package until probably an hour later or more.

What was it? A. I did

Q. When did you notice it? A. I thought of it and carried it up stairs, and it feeling rather light, my curiosity led me to open it to see what it contained. I read in printed letters on the front piece of it, "field-glass." These letters were on a small part of it.

The field-glass is on the table before you, and you can see these letters there now, if you have the curiosity to read them.

Q. You discovered that about an hour afterwards.

at that time? A. I put it with the other things.

What disposition did you make of it

Q. You mean with the gun and cartridge-box? A. Yes, sir.

That gun and cartridge-box, put in that secret room, behind the joists, where he got them that night.

Q. Do you recollect of any of these parties to whom I have called your attention-Surratt, Atzerodt, or Herold-coming to your house that night, after this interview? A. Herold was there about 12 o'clock that night.

At a little after ten o'clock that night, as you remember, the murder was committed. Herold was there about 12.

Q. The same person who was at your house on Tuesday? A. Yes, sir. Q. Who was in company with him at that time? A. I do not know. He did not know who this was. We could not get him to tell, and only by some dexterity were we able to get it out of him. He was determined he would not tell that that was Booth. And when he saw that the counsel were trying to make it appear that he was so far off that he could not hear the conversation, and therefore could not give any evidence of what was said, he was ready to put him as far off as he could. Now let us see what he says here:

Q. State what Herold said about that time? A. Herold said when he came into the house-when I opened the door-" Mr. Lloyd, for God's sake make haste and get those things." He did not name what things they were.

He would not name what things they were. But he already admitted that he knew exactly what things they were.

Mrs. Surratt had been there a little

while before, and asked him to get these things ready.

Q. When he said that what did you do? A. I went up stairs and got them.

Q. What things? A. I got one of the guns, the field-glass, and the cartridge-box, which was all I could bring down at that time, and I did not go back any more.

Q. To whom did you give these things? A. To Herold.

Q. Did you offer anything to the other person? A. I do not think I did. I do not know whether the other person took anything or not. If he took anything at all, it was nothing more than a field-glass.

Then we had a great contest here about what should be told. Finally we asked him, When did you first hear of the assassination? He did not want to tell.

WITNESS. I will state that at the time this man was speaking to me as to what had been done, Herold was across the road. That is, as far as my memory serves me, I think he was. The DISTRICT ATTORNEY. At the time he was speaking of himself-complaining of having something the matter with him—was Herold present, or in such a position that he could hear what he said?

WITNESS. I believe Herold was present when he told me his leg was broken.

Mr. BRADLEY. Has that anything to do with Herold?

Mr. PIERREPONT. Yes, sir, it has.

The COURT. The whole conversation, I presume, is evidence.

Mr. PIERREPONT. In the presence of Herold, he said his leg was broken. What further did he say after saying that?

The COURT. In Herold's presence and hearing.

Mr. BRADLEY. The court will rule whether he can go on and state what passed.

You see the strong effort made to assist him in keeping Herold separate from Booth, as he was endeavoring to do. Now let us see what he further says:

WITNESS. He asked me if there were any doctors in that neighborhood. I told him only one that I knew of, Dr. Hoxton, about a half mile from there, but that he did not practice. He told me so himself. He said he must try and find one somewhere.

Q. Did he say anything about taking any gun? A. He was opposed to taking any gun, and opposed to Herold taking one.

Q. Why? A. Because his leg was broken.

Q. Did he, or Herold, mention his name at that time? A. No, sir; there was no name given at all.

Q. Did you have a good look at the man? A. I was close to him, but did not pay particular attention to him. He appeared to me as if he was drunk.

You see here the great struggle that occurred, and which finally resulted in bringing out that this was Booth from this reluctant witness. But we did at last succeed.

A. I do not remember that he said anything else. He may have done so, but if he did it has escaped my memory, except that portion that I was going to tell awhile ago, but was stopped.

Q. You were going to tell something else? A. Yes, sir; I suppose it will come out hereafter.

Q. You were going to tell something else that the man with the broken leg said, were you? A. Yes, sir.

Q. What was the condition of the moon at that time? A. The moon was up, but it appeared to me as if it had not been up very long.

Q. When did you first hear of the assassination?

Then objection was made by counsel in the most zealous way to our asking the question, "When did you first hear of the assassination?" We had a long debate, the court ruled, and my question was repeated.

WITNESS. I cannot answer that question.

We then had another struggle. The court told him he must answer, but he said he could not answer that question until the other was settled. I said to

him:

You cannot say whether you heard of it a week afterwards, the day before, or that night? A. It might be the second time.

Mr. PIERREPONT. My question is not as to the second time. I ask you on your oath to state when you first heard of this assassination.

WITNESS. If I answer that question, it will come exactly in contact, in my opinion, with what has already been prohibited by the court.

The witness was very much afraid he should do something illegal in this testimony. He came to it as a legal question, and he would not answer it until the court directed him to answer it. I then repeated the question:

I now ask you when you first heard it?
WITNESS. On that ground then I cannot answer.
Well, we had a hard time of it, as you see.

I said:

I do not ask you who stated it, I ask you when you first heard it?

WITNESS. That is the question I am to answer; I cannot answer it.

The COURT. You must answer that question, when you first heard the news of the assassination.

You see this witness had a legal opinion as to the propriety of his evidence, and it was only after a very severe reprimand by the court, and after all these efforts by counsel, that it was finally dragged out of him that he heard it that night.

Q. Were they then both before your house? A. One was there. I do not know that both were. Herold, I think, was across at the stable.

Q. That is the time you heard it? A. Yes, sir.

Q. You think the man with a broken leg was too far from Herold to have Herold hear him? A. I do.

Q. Could he see him? A. Yes, sir. There was nothing intervening between.

Q. You were close to the man with a broken leg? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, tell us what he said about the assassination. A. He did not tell me directly what be did himself. The expression he made use of, as well as I remember, was that "he" or "they" had killed the President. I did not understand which it was, "he" or "they."

Q. Did he say anything about any other man? A. Not a word.

Q. I mean as regards any other person being assassinated? A. I am not certain; but I think it is possible that he might have made use of Secretary Seward's name.

Q. What is your best recollection? A. I think it was him who spoke of it, but I will not be altogether certain about it.

Q. By what familiar or nickname did you hear Atzerodt called? A. I never heard him called very familiarly by any name, except on one occasion, when Surratt told me that some ladies had dubbed him "Port Tobacco.

Q. It was Surratt you heard call him that? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Was Herold present then? A. No, sir.

The hour of three having arrived, the court took a recess until Monday at ten o'clock.

MONDAY, August 5, 1867.

The court met at 10 a. m.

Mr. PIERREPONT, resuming his argument of Saturday, said:

I proceed with the testimony of Lloyd, which was nearly closed when we adjourned on Saturday. I read from page 399:

Q. You have stated that you knew Mrs. Surratt, and rented this house from her. I will ask if you saw her shortly before the assassination of the President; and if so, when and where you saw her? Witness. I do not wish to go into the examination of Mrs. Surratt, as she is not here to answer before this tribunal.

I next read from page 408:

Q. You state you took the paper off the package; what did you first see? A. My curiosity prompted me to open the cover of it. (The glass was here handed to the jury for inspection.) Q. What did you find when you removed the paper covering? A. I found an instrument a good deal like this.

Q. As to the case? A. I found the case, I suppose, something similar to this. It was a leather case.

Q. You found that first? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Then you opened it? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Whatever Mrs. Surratt left there of this kind you gave to somebody that night? A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you give it to the one with the broken leg, or Herold? A. I think Herold took it off. As well as I remember, I did not go outside of the gate until Herold took the things. I think Herold took them out.

At page 412, he says:

Q. Who was with Mrs. Surratt when you saw her? A. Mrs. Surratt was alone when I first saw her; she met me alone.

Q. Whereabouts in the back yard did you meet Mrs. Surratt? A. Near the wood pile. At page 414, he says:

Q. Did not you testify before the military commission that you were asked by one of them if you did not want to hear the news?

This is on the cross-examination of Lloyd. He answers:

A. Yes.

Q. And that you replied you were not particular, or did not want to hear it? A. I told him he might use his own pleasure about that; that I did not care anything about hearing it. Why did he not care about hearing? For the simple reason that he then knew all about it. He expected such news.

Q. And then they told you that the President had been killed, or that "we have killed the President?" A. We," or "they," I do not remember which.

Q. At what time did the soldiers get down there? A. About eight o'clock. I had not been up very long.

Q. You say they told you that they had killed the President, but that you never thought much about it until the soldiers came? A. I thought the man was drunk. I paid no attention to it. He talked to me as if he was drunk.

Q. Do you recollect when the police officers came out there? A. I recollect when Clarvoe

came.

Q. Did you tell Clarvoe that Herold had not been there? A. I do not recollect distinctly the question Clarvoe put to me. The soldiers had been there before he got there.

Q. Why cannot you recollect; were you drunk? A. I had been drinking that morning, and then I became frightened, after the soldiers told me what had been done. I did not know what to do or how to act.

Q. Try and recollect what Clarvoe said to you. A. As well as I recollect, he told me there was money enough in this thing to make both of us rich, if I would give him information I possessed.

Q. Didn't you tell him then that neither of these men had been there? A. I may have done so.

Q. Don't you recollect that you did do it? A. I have not the least doubt I did do it. I did not want to be drawn in as a witness in this affair at all.

Now, let us see what reason is given by this man, a tenant of Mrs. Surratt, who is in the house, and to whom the guns had been given; who knew where they were secreted by this prisoner at the bar; who went with him and saw them secreted; who received this field-glass on that same day from Mrs. Surratt, and put it with those articles, and from whom he received on that day the injunction to have two bottles of whiskey and those shooting-irons and other things ready, as they would soon be wanted.

A. I have not the least doubt I did do it. I did not want to be drawn in as a witness in the affair at all. I knew that Mrs. Surratt's name would be drawn in, if anything was said, and I did not want to say anything about it.

That is the reason he gives you. He did know Mrs. Surratt's name would be drawn in; he knew that Mrs. Surratt's son and Herold had brought the arms there; he knew that Mrs. Surratt's son had hid them in that secret room; he knew that Mrs. Surratt had come there on the day of this murder, and told him to have those shooting-irons and other things ready, that they would soon be wanted, and likewise to have two bottles of whiskey ready. Well might he say, then, that "I knew Mrs. Surratt's name would be drawn in, if anything was said, and I did not want to say anything about it."

At page 416 he said:

Q. What time in the night was that? A. About midnight.

Q. Who roused you up? A. I think it was probably Herold himself.
Hallooing about? A. Very likely.

At page 418 he says, in reply to a question from the court:

A. I will explain: In case of going before a court to give testimony, or anything of that kind, I cannot in justice to myself taste any liquor without possibly making me say something or use some expression that I would not wish to, or oftentimes making me forget things I do not wish to forget.

You will remember, gentlemen, the question I put to him. I asked him if he had any liquor on board then, but counsel on the other side objected to the answer. Counsel said you could tell as well as this witness could whether he had any liquor in him or not. Yes, you could tell; and you know very well whether he had any liquor in him or not; whether he was testifying or not as a sober man. You will also remember what a reluctant witness he was.

At page 420 he states further:

Q. In your examination in chief I understand you to say that Herold went down below your house; that he started alone, and the next morning came back with these carbines? A. The night before, Herold started alone; the next morning I saw his horse "at my front gate.

I am reading this, gentlemen, to show you the connection of Herold and John Surratt with these guns and other weapons of death which had been concealed there :

Q. You did not see Herold bring them? A. I did not. I knew nothing about the carbines or anything of the kind until my attention was called to them in the front room.

Q. Herold, if I understand you, went down the night before, and the next morning came back, and when you came in you found the carbines in the room-who brought them you do not know? A. I was invited into the room by John Surratt.

Q. You do not know who brought them in? A. I do not.

Q. Do you know where Herold went that night? A. He told us in the bar-room that he was obliged to go to T B that night. It was getting very late when he left. I told him that I had one spare bed, which he might occupy if he wished.

Now I am going to take him to T B, and bring him up here to this place with these arms which this prisoner, in connection with Herold, concealed. Before