Mr. JENKINS. Yes; I am talking about obtaining information beyond what the people in the neighborhood-or saying, yes, there are some folks up there in the hills that get together on the weekend. I am talking about intelligence operations.

Senator DEWINE. Now, take it a step further. According to recent news reports, we have, I don't know, dozens, maybe hundreds of organizations that might fit the description that I just talked about. Are you saying that each one of these groups should be infiltrated? I am just trying to find out exactly what you are saying.

Mr. JENKINS. I am not saying each and every one of them should. I mean, I don't know that we have enough people to do that even if that were wise to do, but certainly I think there is sufficient information already available in terms of the antecedents of these people. I mean, these are not strangers that just pop up out of nowhere. A lot of them have histories. A lot of them do publish things. I lot of them do say things which go beyond the kinds of things they say in front of TV cameras. That is going to give you some basis for who you are going to be more concerned about than the others.

Senator DEWINE. So, to summarize, and I see my time is almost up, you are concerned not so much by what they say or even by what they do, but by who they are or what they have done in the past. You want to know who you are dealing with.

Mr. JENKINS. You want to know who you are dealing with and, again, the information that you have available-you are either going to have their past affiliations, their statements public or their statements private which somebody may have happened to have overheard, and that is going to provide the basis for saying whether you are not very concerned or whether you are mightily concerned. I don't know of any other way to focus the activity. That is not different from any other kind of intelligence activity that is done by law enforcement agencies in this country.

Senator DEWINE. Thank you very much.

Senator SPECTER. Thank you very much, Senator DeWine.

Senator Simon.

Senator SIMON. Thank you. First of all, I apologize, Mr. Chairman, for not being here. I spent a couple of hours in a dentist's chair this afternoon, I regret to say.

Just an observation. My instinct is that Mr. Dees, for whom I have great respect, is correct when he says the present guidelines, as outlined by past attorneys general, are probably pretty sound; that Dick Thornburg's "reasonable indication" guideline of criminal intent or activity is probably pretty sound. Obviously, judgment calls have to be made.

I read where Gordon Liddy says in his target practice he has an outline of Bill Clinton and Hillary Clinton and he uses that for target practice. I feel very uneasy with that, but he is within his constitutional rights to do that. If I hear of a militia group having the same kind of practice, I think that is the basis for the FBI or somebody to penetrate that group because, as Mr. Jenkins says, there are people who are unbalanced who sometimes get into these groups where they can be problems.

I

guess the other thing is—and I think this is where the hearings here are good and I think we are approaching this properly. I think

we shouldn't just rush in in a moment of hysteria. We have got to look at this thing calmly and say are we doing the right kind of thing; listen to people like all four of you-Bob Kupperman, who has been here on a number of occasions-but make sure that we don't violate the basic civil rights and civil liberties of people as we try to do a more effective job.

Mr. KUPPERMAN. Senator Simon, aren't you, in a way, talking about risk-taking? You want to profile certain types of people and organizations, but you also want to know the propensity for and the level of expected damage, given that you are wrong.

The sarin incident in Tokyo is especially scary. I can tell you, wearing a hat as a scientist, which is a rare thing for me lately, it is entirely feasible to extract botulinal toxin and to extract ricin from the caster bean. Organizations have this ability. It impressed me that we ought to be in the business of measuring not only likelihood of events, but the consequences of failing in some way, of not understanding them well enough and their propensity for violence. With anthrax, you really can kill hundreds of thousands of people, and there are a number of publications around that are beginning to demonstrate a real knowledge of how to do it.

Senator SIMON. I thank all of you. I thank you, Mr. Chairman. Senator SPECTER. Thank you very much, Senator Simon, and thank all of you. I would like to just pursue one final question before bringing the hearing to a close, and thank you very much for staying until the late hour.

Mr. Jenkins, I believe it was your comment, or maybe it was your comment, Mr. Emerson, about talking recently to somebody from the FBI who had substantial information that he couldn't proceed against some group. Was that you, Mr. Emerson?

Mr. EMERSON. Yes; I referred to that.

Senator SPECTER. Could you amplify that just a little bit?

Mr. EMERSON. I can amplify it. In fact, one of the issues that I think this committee should explore, because I hear a disconnect between what the Director of the FBI is saying versus what I hear agents on the ground telling me and I have spent quite a bit of time with agents throughout the country as they have tracked different terrorist and radical movements.

Senator SPECTER. And what is the essence of what those agents tell you?

Mr. EMERSON. The message of what they are telling me is that they are constrained and severely restricted in terms of them opening up investigations or acquiring information and or sending in informants. Let me give you a good example here. I wrote an article in the Wall Street Journal the other day, but I will give you another example beyond that article.

This past December, there was a radical convention of suspected terrorists coming in from outside the United States-Hamas, Islamic Jihad, plus radical militants from around the United States. It would have provided a wonderful opportunity to collect intelligence material. They knew that known terrorists were going to be there from outside the United States.

The FBI agents involved-and I am not going to mention the city to protect the innocent here were not allowed to monitor that convention. They asked for permission to send an informant.

Senator SPECTER. It was an open convention? Anybody could walk in?

Mr. EMERSON. Anybody could walk in. Now, the way they got around that—and they had to think of it and I hope I am not betraying confidences here is that they had to think of someone who they knew would be there, someone that they wouldn't want to put surveillance on specifically. So they sent an informant in to look for that one person, and while he was looking for that one person, ostensibly, he took notes on what was going on around him over the 3-day period.

Senator SPECTER. Well, were they specifically prohibited from going in? They weren't authorized to do so as part of an FBI investigation, but were they prohibited from doing so?

Mr. EMERSON. They were told they were not allowed to send anyone in.

Senator SPECTER. Mr. Emerson, that is a fascinating subject. We do want to conclude now, but if you could provide us with more specifics-you say you have talked to a number of FBI agents-we would be very much interested to know.

We will insert a statement in the record from Gerald Goldstein, President of the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers. [The prepared statement of Mr. Goldstein can be found in the appendix.]

Senator SPECTER. We want to thank you very much, Mr. Dees, Mr. Jenkins, Mr. Emerson, and Dr. Kupperman, for coming in. We are going to hold a second hearing, as I had said earlier, on next Thursday, which is May 4, at 1 p.m. where we will hear from supplementary witnesses. Thank you all for coming.

The hearing is adjourned.

[Whereupon, at 6:31 p.m., the committee was adjourned.]

CLINTON ADMINISTRATION PROPOSALS ON COUNTERTERRORISM INTELLIGENCE GATH

ERING

WEDNESDAY, MAY 24, 1995

U.S. SENATE,

COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY,

Washington, DC.

The committee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:14 p.m., in room SD-226, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Orrin Hatch (chairman of the committee), presiding.

OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. ORRIN G. HATCH, A U.S.
SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF UTAH

The CHAIRMAN. We will call the committee to order.

I have to point out that there have been some machinations on the floor that now will require 30 back-to-back roll call votes on the budget resolution, so it is quite apparent that we are going to be unable to take all the testimony here orally in the committee, but this testimony is very important. It is all in writing.

So what I would suggest we do and I have tried to get hold of Senator Biden, but I think he probably would be in agreement. This is an important set of issues. We believe we know where we are going on it. We have had a lot of advice from Justice, from the White House, and from both inside and outside the Senate and the Congress.

I think what we will do is we will take all written statements, make them part of the record, and we will submit questions in writing. Any member of this committee can submit whatever questions in writing to the witnesses that any member cares to submit, and we will make the record on that basis because there is no way we can conduct a hearing under these circumstances.

It has become very partisan on the floor right now, and that is the reason why I think we are going to have to go through these 30 floor votes back to back. Everybody knows that the balanced budget bill-its time is up, but you cannot necessarily stop the calling up of amendments, and I suspect we are going to go through hours now of machinations on those particular amendments, and votes on each one of them.

So what we will do is we will order that all written statements be submitted for the record. The record will be kept open for any written questions that any member of the committee would care to write. We will keep it open only until tomorrow evening, and hopefully we can get these answers back as soon as possible because

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