Mr. McMULLIN. I am very sorry that my colleague was not in the Hall. Mr. NABERS. I had better, then, proceed. I do not intend to get a great way out of order. Mr. STEPHENS, of Georgia. I barely rise to say, by way of suggestion to the gentleman and to the Chair, that I doubt if there was anything said yesterday in the debate strictly out of order. Gentlemen seem to suppose that when in Committee of the Whole they are allowed a greater latitude of debate than when in the House. In that they are mistaken. The same rules govern the debate. When in the Committee of the Whole upon appropriation and other bills, custom has allowed a large latitude to gentlemen, but the parliamentary law is the same-the rules of the House govern us. Now, I submit to the Chair and the House whether everything in connection with this proposition pertaining to the ability and suitableness of the selection of these gentlemen to execute this part of the printing, is not legitimate in discussion. 1 am not expressing any opinion as to the merits of these gentlemen, but I submit that it is a fair subject-matter of debate. The SPEAKER. The Chair on yesterday did not feel disposed to call the gentleman from North Carolina [Mr. VENABLE] to order, when it was the evident desire of the House that he should proceed. The Chair would have pursued the same course to-day with reference to the gentleman from Mississippi, [Mr. NABERS:] but when a gentleman rising in his place, calls to order, it is the duty of the Chair to confine gentlemen to the subject matter under debate. ocratic party depends upon giving this job to Don- Mr. MEADE. I am not going into a discus- marks are in order. The gentleman from North Carolina was ruled out of order yesterday. I call for the enforcement of the rules. I call the attention of the Chair to the 31st rule. Mr. STUART. Is this question of order a debatable one? The SPEAKER. It is not. The Chair is of the opinion that the gentleman from Mississippi cannot under the rules discuss political contests which the people in Mississippi have had, nor the merits of the late compromise measures, with regard to the Territories, and slavery as connected with them. The Chair is bound to say that the gentleman is out of order. Mr. CARTTER. I move that the gentleman be permitted to proceed in order. The question was then taken and it was agreed to. state of the Union. It is evident that he cannot debate it here. The SPEAKER. The Chair understands that the gentleman from Virginia [Mr. MEADE] Sought the floor for the purpose of making a suggestion to the member from Mississippi, [Mr. NABERS,] that gentleman having yielded the floor, for that purpose. The Chair does not think that the gentleman from Virginia [Mr. MEADE] is out of or-friend from Mississippi, I will suggest to him, as der. he has the floor, to make a motion to refer this Mr. MEADE. The suggestion I make is sim- || subject to the Committee of the Whole on the ply this: that the Democratic party are agreed in relation to the powers of the Government and the rights of the States. They differ about the remedy in case those rights are invaded. Now, I suggest to him whether there is any good to grow out of the discussion of a question which ought arises, by some event that is yet to take place? to be postponed, at least until that question If we choose to make two parties out of the Demiocratic party in regard to a remedy for the pres ervation of the rights of the States, while we are all agreed about those rights and the powers of the General Government, this discussion may go If it is politic for us to reserve that question till the time arrives, then I would suggest that it is best for us to act in harmony until it does ar rive. before this time. Mr. NABERS. on. I am fully aware of that, and shall not complain if called to order for not strictly conforming to the rules of the House. If called to order, I will feel inclined to take my seat until the question is decided. Now, I was about to Mr. NABERS. I think that the very point to which the gentleman from Virginia has called my proceed, on yesterday evening, to state what I deemed to be the reason of the peculiar hostility attention, would have been answered in my speech manifested by the gentleman from North Carolina In connection with the sug[Mr. VENABLE] against the editors of the Wash-gestion made by the gentleman from Virginia [Mr. ington Union newspaper, I propose to give these MEADE] I will say, that there is no member of the reasons briefly now, and trust they will be satisDemocratic party, entertaining views similar to those which I hold, who has manifested the least factory to a large proportion of gentlemen occupying seats upon this floor. disposition to throw a fire-brand into this Congress. It is my purpose studiously to avoid anything of the sort. But at the same time, whilst I do not propose to divide, distract, or cut into fragments, if I could, that or any other party, I cannot suffer myself or my friends to be assailed by others, who entertain particular views, without vindicating not only the sentiments which I entertain, but those of the newspapers, which entertain a similarity of sentiment. It was clearly indicated in the speech delivered by the honorable member from North Carolina, [Mr. VENABLE,] yesterday, pleased, and that he would denounce any man, or that he expected to say just precisely what he set of men, who might chance to differ with him. Mr. ORR. I call the gentleman to order. Mr. ORR. I call the gentleman to order for irrelevancy. The gentleman stated that he proposed to discuss the reasons of the hostility of the member from North Carolina [Mr. VENABLE] to the editors of the Union. I submit that it is not germane to the question now before the House for consideration. The SPEAKER. The Chair thinks the gen tleman is in order. Mr. MEADE. Allow me to make a suggestion. The gentleman from Mississippi [Mr. NABERS] is desirous of discussing a question which must open a wide field of debate. I would suggest to him, if he is desirous of giving himself a full latitude, and allow the powers of his mind to operate without being cramped by apprehensions of the rules of the House, and of being called to order, to let the discussion take place upon some other question in Committee of the Whole. Then he will have ample time to reply to the gentleman from North Carolina, [Mr. VENABLE.] I will suggest another thing. If it is his purpose, or that of any other man, to break up the present harmony that exists in the Democratic party, it is very well to let this discussion go on, and I will tell you why. It is well known that the Democratic party areMr. STANTON, of Tennessee. I call the gentleman from Virginia [Mr. MEADE] to order. He is not stating his point of order. [Laughter.] Mr. MEADE. It was a suggestion I was about to make, that he was not going on with the discussion upon this bill. Mr. STANTON. I thought you had called him to order. Mr. STEPHENS. I wish to ask the gentleman from Virginia [Mr. MEADE] a question. Mr. MEADE. I would rather reply to the gentleman from Mississippi, [Mr. NABERS.] I cannot answer a question until I have made my own suggestions. Mr.STEPHENS. I would ask the gentleman whether he believes that the harmony of the Dem Mr. STANTON, of Tennessee. He cannot debate it in Committee of the Whole, any more than he can here. The same rules govern the committee. [Cries of "Go on!" "Go on!"] Mr. NABERS resumed. I dislike very much to occupy the time of the House, and really I have no very great anxiety to address it. I disobject I have in view. My object is to put an excover that gentlemen thoroughly misconceive the tinguisher upon all these fires of contention before I am through. My object is not to assail any one. I believe I will heed the suggestions of my friends around me. I have no feeling about it for myself. Representing, as I do, a most glorious constituency, I should love to make a speech, under the circumstances, if I were at liberty to do so. But being a new member, unacquainted with the rules of the House, and subject to constant interruption, it is impossible for me to proceed, and I therefore yield to the suggestions of my friends. Mr. HOUSTON moved that the joint resolution be referred to the Committee of the Whole on the state of the Union; and on that motion he demanded the previous question. The previous question was seconded, on a division-ayes 95, noes 45-and the main question was then ordered to be put. Mr. GORMAN. I would inquire of the Chair whether this motion precludes me from making an argument? The SPEAKER. At this time. The SPEAKER. The motion would preclude the gentleman from making a speech at this time. Mr. JONES, of Tennessee. I would suggest to the Chair that, by the rules and practice of the House, the gentleman from Indiana, as chairtion, is entitled to an hour speech at this time. man of the committee that reported this proposi The SPEAKER. The Chair doubts whether that rule applies to a motion of reference. There can be no doubt that the gentleman from Indiana would be entitled to be heard in case the motion to commit did not prevail; but the Chair is of opinion that he cannot be heard upon the motion to commit, all debate having been cut off by the previous question. And yet if the party assailed see proper to vindi- Mr. ORR. Iagain call the gentleman to order. Mr. ORR. I should have no objection to hear the gentleman from Mississippi [Mr. NABERS] in Committee of the Whole, if he desires to reply to the gentleman from North Carolina, [Mr VENABLE. I should be gratified to hear him; but upon this resolution I do not think that his re Mr. JONES. I suppose, then, that if the motion to commit is negatived, he will be entitled to be heard before the question is taken on the reso The SPEAKER. Certainly. Mr. GORMAN demanded the yeas and nays; and they were ordered. And the question being taken, it was decided in the affirmative-yeas 148, nays 45; as follows: YEAS-Messrs. Abercrombie, Aiken, Willis Allen, Allison, John Appleton, William Appleton, Ashe, Babcock, Barrere, Bartlett, Bell, Bibighaus, Bocock, Bowie, Bragg, Briggs, Brooks, Albert G. Brown, George H. Brown, Buell, Burrows, E. Carrington Cabell, Caldwell, Lewis D. Campbell, Thompson Campbell, Cartter, Caskie, Chandler, Chastain, Churchwell, Clark, Clingman, Colcock, Conger, Cottman, Cullom, Curtis, Daniel, George T. Davis, Dunmick, Dockery, Doty, Duncan, Durkee, Eastman, Edgerton, Evans, Ficklin, Fitch, Florence, Fowler, Henry M. Fuller, Gamble, Gentry, Giddings, Gilmore, Goodenow, Goodrich, Grey, Grow, Isham G. Harris, Sampson W. Harris, Hart. Haws, Hascall, Haven, Hebard, Hibbard, Hiller, Holladay Horsford, Houston, John W. Howe, Thomas Y. How, Hunter, Ives, Jackson, Jenkins, Andrew of the Union. I see no reason for changing that practice. son, Daniel T. Jones, George W. Jones, J. Glancy Jones,ered in the Committee of the Whole on the state Wells, Addison White, Alexander White, Wildrick, Wil liams, and Woodward-148. NAYS-Messrs. Charles Allen, Thomas H. Bayly, Beale, Breckenridge, Brenton, Busby, Cobb, Dawson, Dean, Dunham, Freeman, Thomas J. D. Fuller, Gaylord, Gorman, Green, Hall, Hamilton, Hendricks, Henn, Howard, Ingersoll, Letcher, Lockhart, Mace, Mason, McCorkle, McMul-lin, Meade, Nabers, Olds, Polk, Price, Robbins, Robinson, Savage, Scurry, David L. Seymour, Frederick P. Stanton, Richard H. Stanton, St. Martin, Stratton, Stuart, Sweetser, George W. Thompson, and Wilcox-45. The SPEAKER. The Chair thinks that the general power given to the House extends to the fixing of a time for closing the debate on a proposition in advance of its actual consideration in the committee. Mr. STEPHENS, of Georgia. I would inquire of the Chair, by way of suggestion to the gentleman from Tennessee, whether there is not a special order for Thursday next, and from day to day thereafter? A majority of the House cannot supersede a special order already made. Mr. POLK. Can the gentleman from Georgia inform me what was the hour fixed for that special order? The SPEAKER. For the entire day and from So the joint resolution was referred to the Com- day to day thereafter until disposed of. mittee of the Whole on the state of the Union. Mr. STEPHENS. I would suggest to the gentleman from Tennessee, that he can attain his object by modifying his resolution so as to read, that the debate shall cease in fifteen minutes, or one hour, after the committee shall take the subup. Mr. POLK. I will accept of that modifica CLOSE OF DEBATE ON CENSUS PRINTING. Mr. POLK offered the following resolution: Resolved, That all debate in Committee of the Whole on the state of the Union on joint resolution No. 12, shall ceaseject on Thursday next at two o'clock, and they shall then proceed to vote on such amendments as may be pending or offered to the same, and shall then report it to the House with such amendments as may have been agreed to by the committee. Mr. CLINGMAN. I submit that that resolution is not in order at this time. It is not proper to offer such a resolution until the matter has been up in the Committee of the Whole on the state of the Union, and has been debated there. It has been so decided by the last Speaker. I know that fact. I remember it distinctly. Mr. POLK. I have not surrendered the floor yet. The SPEAKER. The Chair thinks that the resolution is in order. Mr. STANLY. Then I move to lay it upon the table. Mr. POLK. The gentleman from North Carolina cannot submit that motion until I yield the floor. The SPEAKER: The question not being debatable, the gentleman from Tennessee had no right to retain the floor. Mr. CLINGMAN. I intended to appeal from the decision of the Chair-that this resolution is now in order. Mr. POLK. It is very strange that gentlemen upon the other side should be so anxious that the debate should progress upon this question. There must be some object-some purpose in it. Mr. STANLY. There is. We desire to save the public money. The SPEAKER. The Chair decides that the resolution offered by the gentleman from Tenuessee, [Mr. POLK,] closing debate upon the joint resolution just referred to the Committee of the Whole on the state of the Union, is in order, and from that decision the gentleman from North Carolina [Mr. CLINGMAN] appeals. Mr. CLINGMAN. I ask for the reading of the rule making a resolution of that kind in order. Mr. POLK. Will the gentleman from North Carolina state when such a resolution would be in order? Mr. CLINGMAN. After the joint resolution had been debated in Committee of the Whole on the state of the Union. Mr. POLK. For how long? A MEMBER. For one minute even. The SPEAKER. The rule is as follows: "The House may, at any time, by a vote of a majority of the members present, suspend the rules and orders for the purpose of going into Committee of the Whole House on the state of the Union; and also for providing for the discharge of the Committee of the Whole House, aud the Committee of the Whole House on the state of the Union, from the further consideration of any bill referred to it, after acting without debate on all amendments pending, and that may be offered." The Chair is still of the opinion that the resolution is in order. Mr. CLINGMAN. Will the Chair allow me to state that the ground upon which his predecessor based his decision was with reference to the words" further consideration?" The SPEAKER. So the Chair understands. Mr. CLINGMAN. I know that Mr. Cobb decided again and again-and so did Mr. Winthrop that it was not in order to offer a resolution of this kind until the matter had been consid tion. Mr. ORR. Was not an appeal taken from the decision of the Chair? The SPEAKER. There was; but the gentleman from Tennessee has a right to modify his resolution. Mr. HIBBARD. Is not the question now pending upon the appeal? The SPEAKER. It is. Mr. HIBBARD. Then I move to lay the peal upon the table. ap Mr. POLK then modified his resolution so as to read that the debate should cease in one hour after the committee should take up the subject. Mr. CLINGMAN. My objection still lies. The usual resolution has been, that the debate shall cease within one hour after the committee shall resume the consideration of the subject. Lockhart, Mace, Mason, McCorkle, McLanahan, McMullin, McNair, Morrison, Murray, Nabers, Olds, Andrew Parker, amuel W. Parker, Penn, Polk, Price, Rantoui, Riddle, Robbins, Robinson, Russell, Savage, David L. Seymour, Skelton, Smith, Frederick P. Stanton, Richard H. Stanton. Alexander H. Stephens, St. Martin, Stratton, Stuart, George W. Thompson, Thurston, Wilcox, and Wildrick-76. NAYS-Messrs. Abercrombie, Aiken, Charles Allen, Allison, W. Appleton, Ashe, Averett, Barrere, Fell, Bibighaus, Bocock, Bragg, Brenton, Brooks, Albert G. Brown, George H. Brown, Burrows, E. Carrington Cabell, Lewis D. Campbell, Cartier, Caskie, Clingman, Cobb, Colcock, Conger, | Duncan, Durkee, Eastman, Edgerton, Evans, Ficklin, Cullom, Daniel, George T. Davis, Disney, Dockery, Doty, Fitch, Florence, Fowler, Thomas J. D. Fuller, Giddings, Goodenow, Goodrich, Grey, Grow, Hall, Harper, Haws, Thomas Y. How, Hunter, Ives, Jackson, Jenkins, Andrew Haven, Hebard, Holladay, Horsford, John W. Howe, Johnson. James Johnson, John Johnson, Daniel T. Jones, George W. Jones, George G. King, Mann, Humphrey Marshall, Martin, McDonald, Miller, Millson, Miner, Molony, Morehead, Murphy, Newton, Orr, Outlaw, Peaslee, Penniman, Phelps, Porter, Schooleraft, Schoonmaker, Scudder, Scurry, Smart, Stanly, Benjamin Stanton, Strother, Sweetser, Taylor, Benjamin Thompson, Townshend, Tuck, Walbridge, Wallace, Walsh, Ward, Washburn, Watkins, Welch, Wells, Addison White, Alexander White, Williams, and Yates-107. So the House refused to lay the appeal upon the table. The question now being, "Shall the decision of the Chair stand as the judgment of the House?" Mr. CLINGMAN called for tellers; which were ordered, and Messrs. CLINGMAN, and STANTON of Tennessee, were appointed. Mr. SKELTON. I desire to move to reconsider the vote by which the House referred this resolution to the Committee of the Whole on the state of the Union. The SPEAKER. The gentleman's motion will be entertained, but the Chair thinks that the question of order must first be disposed of. The resolution was then again read as modified. Mr. POLK. If the resolution is still under my control, I desire again to modify it, so as to close debate in five hours, instead of one hour after the Committee of the Whole on the state of the Union shall again have entered upon its consideration. The SPEAKER. The Chair thinks it compeThe SPEAKER. The gentleman can so modtent for the House to order the committee even to ify the resolution, if the decision of the Chair is be discharged from any consideration of the sub-sustained; but the question of order must first be ject. determined. Mr. STEPHENS. There is no doubt about that, but that is under a different rule. Mr. POLK. Will it be in order, to avoid the objection of the gentleman from North Carolina, to amend the resolution so as to make it read,|| "on Wednesday next at three o'clock?" The SPEAKER. That would not obviate the objection raised by the gentleman from North Carolina. The question was then taken on the motion to lay the appeal upon the table, and, on a count, there were-ayes 71. Mr. CLINGMAN demanded tellers; which were ordered. which Mr. POLK demanded the yeas aad nays; were ordered. Mr. MEADE. I desire to inquire of the Speaker what is the state of the question? The SPEAKER. The Chair will state, for the information of the gentleman and the House, that the gentleman from Tennessee [Mr. POLK] desired to offer a resolution closing debate in Committee of the Whole upon the joint resolution in relation to the Census printing. The gentleman from North Carolina [Mr. CLINGMAN] made the point of order that the House could not close debate in the Committee of the Whole upon a subject until the committee had had the subject first under consideration. The Chair decided that the resolution was in order. From that decision the gentleman from North Carolina [Mr. CLINGMAN] appeals. The gentleman from New Hampshire [Mr. HIBBARD] moves to lay that appeal upon the table. The question now is, therefore, "Shall the appeal from the decision of the Chair lie upon the table?" Upon that question the yeas and nays have been ordered. The question was then taken, and there wereyeas 76, nays 107; as follows: YEAS-Messrs. W. Allen, Thomas H. Bayly, Bartlett, Beale, Breckenride, Briggs, Buell, Busby, Caldwell, T. Campbell, Chastain, Clark, Cottman, Curtis, Dawson, Dean, Dimmick, Dunham, Edmundson, Freeman, Gaylord, Gentry, Gilmore, Gorman, Green, Hamilton, Ishain G. Harris, Sampson W. Harris, Hart, Hascall, Hendricks, Henn, Hibbard, Hillyer, Howard, Ingersoll, Robert W. Johnson, J. Glancy Jones, Preston King, Kurtz, Letcher, The question was then taken, and the tellers reported-ayes 59, noes 96. So the decision of the Chair was overruled, and the resolution of the gentleman from Tennessee [Mr. PоLK] was ruled out of order. Mr. HOUSTON. Mr. Speaker, I now pro pose The SPEAKER. The gentleman from New Jersey [Mr. SKELTON] has the floor-if he desires to claim it-upon his motion to reconsider the vote by which the joint resolution was referred to the Committee of the Whole on the state of the Union. Mr. SKELTON. I now desire to make that motion; and upon that motion I wish to make one or two remarks. In voting for the reference of this resolution, I did so for the purpose of obtaining additional information upon the subject before it was finally disposed of. Since that reference has been made, however, my views upon that subject have undergone a change. I am satisfied that we are as well prepared to vote upon this resolution now, as we shall be ten days or ten weeks hence, or at least any future time. I am in favor of the most rigid economy in the administration of the affairs of this Government. And it is for these reasons I desire that this subject shall not be referred to the Committee of the Whole on the state of the Union. I believe this House is now prepared knowingly and understandingly to vote upon this subject, and that if it is referred, the consequence will be unnecessary delay. The interests of this House and the country demand that this subject of public printing shall be acted upon, and acted upon speedily. It is, in my opinion, a bad economy for this House to prolong the consideration of this question from day to day, when its own business is suffering for want of the necessary printing, to give the information required in the transaction of its own business. I say that is a bad economy. Upon the other hand, it has been admitted, I believe, by all the committees which have reported to this House upon the subject, that the printer who contracted to do the public printing for this Congress, has utterly failed to comply with that contract. With this state of things before us, it Mr. FLORENCE. I desire that the gentleman from New Jersey [Mr. SKELTON] will specify what printer it is who has performed his work thus badly. I desire to know whether he refers to the present contractor or the contractors for a former Congress? Mr. SKELTON. I will state to the gentleman that, so far as my observation has extended, the public printing not only for previous Congresses, but for this House since the commencement of the present session, has been done very badly, and upon very bad paper. Will that satisfy the gentleman from Pennsylvania? I do not know who has done this printing, but, by whomsoever it has been done, I do know that it has not been done according to the contract. Mr. FLORENCE. It satisfies me so far as the gentleman's declaration is concerned, but no further. I have my own opinion as to the conclusion which he arrives at, as to whether the public printing for the present Congress has been well executed or not. I have some of it before me, and as far as my experience goes, and according to my own judgment, I have no hesitation in saying, that it is the best public printing I ever saw, and qui e as good as any I ever saw either by contract or by the publisher of any newspaper in the country. Mr. SKELTON. I will say, for the information of this House and the country, that the gentleman who has the contract for the public printing is a stranger to me, and I have, therefore, no personal feelings in the matter whatever. I do not even know the politics of the gentleman, and therefore I have no political feelings to gratify in this matter. My only object is to have the printing of this House and of Congress done in time, and properly done. That is my only motive. I leave the quality of the paper heretofore used, and the printing heretofore done, for the consideration of the members of this House. I have given my opinion, and the gentleman from Pennsylvania has given his, and it is for the House to decide between us. I presume a majority of the gentlemen in this House will admit that the printing has not been done according to the contract entered into by the public printer. I believe that this contract system has failed; and that having failed, it becomes indispensably necessary that we should adopt some other method by which we can have this work done expeditiously. We have now a resolution before the House which looks to the accomplishment of this object. I do not believe it is necessary to refer this resolution to the Committee of the Whole on the state of the Union. I shall insist, when the work of this House is to be done, that it shall be done in a proper manner; and while I insist upon the most rigid economy in giving out the public printing, I will say-and I believe the members ofthis House are willing to take the same ground-that I am in favor of giving a fair compensation for such labor, so that men shall not, after the work has been done, come before us and say they have not been paid for their work, and have lost by their jobs. I say this is all wrong. We should give them a fair compensation, and insist upon the work being done in a proper manner and at a proper time. If the printing of this House costs us a little more in money, under the arrangement proposed to be entered into by the committee who have the special charge of this matter, we shall gain in other Mr. EVANS. If the honorable gentleman will allow me, the Superintendent of the Census has shown me the book. The gentleman is perfectly correct. He says it will make two volumes about the size of the American Archives. If the Compendium of Maryland will make one hundred pages, I argue from it that the whole will make about four volumes, and not thirty volumes, as stated yesterday. Mr. STANTON, of Kentucky. If the gentleman will allow me, I have a letter from Mr. Kennedy, the Superintendent of the Census, and will send it to the Speaker's table to be read. respects more than we lose in dollars and cents ingressional Globe; and if you leave off this histori Mr. GORMAN. I hope the gentleman will withdraw his call for the previous question for a short time. Mr. SKELTON. As the chairman of the Committee on Printing desires it, I will withdraw the call, upon condition that he renews it. Mr. GORMAN. Certainly. Mr. EVANS. I will further state, that the Superintendent of the Census told me that the specimen-work for Maryland will be laid on every member's table on Saturday next; and from that every one can judge for himself, if Maryland makes one hundred pages how much the whole Union will make. The communication from Mr. Kennedy was then read, as follows: CENSUS BUREAU, January 27, 1832. SIR: The census returns, as I propose to arrange them, will make two volumes (not quite so much) of the size of the American Archives. The second volume of the fourth series is a fair sample of the size. If my comments are omitted, it will reduce the size thirty per cent. Respectfully, your obedient servant, Hon. R. H. STANTON. J. C. G. KENNEDY, Superintendent Census Bureau, Mr. GORMAN, (resuming.) That letter from Mr. Kennedy says, that if the printing proceeds as suggested by the Secretary of the Interior, and Mr. ORR. I desire to know whether the pre-by the Superintendent of the Census, it will make vious question can be demanded upon a motion to reconsider? The SPEAKER. There is no question of that. The gentleman from Indiana [Mr. GORMAN] is entitled to the floor. two volumes something less than the size of the American Archives-that is about the size of the Congressional Globe substantially. Now, the next thing is, will this House order the printing of the historical part? I will consent and my colleagues upon the committee will consent, I understand-that you strike off this historical part. Then it will make two volumes-thirty per cent. less than the two volumes I have described. It is in such a state of forwardness at this time, that it can be left off without interrupting the printing at all. Do you desire to leave off A VOICE. No! no! Mr. G. If you do, I will propose an amendment, or will accept one, that it shall be left off, and let the printing proceed, as is the earnest desire of the Secretary of the Interior, the Superintendent of the Census, and of you all. Strike it out, then. A VOICE. Oh no! let us have it all. Mr. GORMAN. The confusion upon this subject has created some little excitement, and if I could be heard I am well satisfied that I can satisfy this House-I care not to what party gentlemen belong-that this question need not, and ought not, for the public good, to be referred to the Committee of the Whole on the state of the Union. Gentlemen upon both sides of the House are call-the historical part? ing upon the Committee on Printing-I am besieged upon the right hand and left--to have the public printing done, and have it laid before the country. You ask me, my friends ask me, what are you doing upon this subject? The point first before the House-and I stated it briefly when I got up-is, Does this printing come within the contract of the public printer? By reference to the law, it will be seen that this species of printing was ex- Mr. G. Now, whether it is struck out or not, pressly reserved from the contract. Every gen- why delay? The next thing, Mr. Speaker, is, ileman upon that committee-the distinguished why is this resolution introduced with the name Senator from Connecticut, [Mr. SMITH,] and the gentleman from New York, [Mr. HAVENS,] being of Donelson & Armstrong? Will my friends hear me? and I will tell you the reason. Here is members of that committee upon that side of the a job, reserved from the public printer's contract House-every gentleman was clearly of the opin- by the letter of the law, to be done by your orion that there was no legal doubt upon the ques- der. Who will you give it to? You have organtion at all. Then that being settled, what next?ized a committee in this House, and the coördiHere is a job-if you may so call it-of census printing. It has to be done, and by somebody. nate branch of the legislative department of the Government has organized another committee. In the first place, the gentleman from Ohio (Mr. The Democratic party of the country are in the Vinton) introduced this census law in the last ascendency here. You have organized those comCongress, and he put into that census law, at the request of the authorities of Government-I am mittees with Democratic majorities. You direct authorized to say so-and at the request of some them, by a resolution, that they shall have this of the members of the Administration, that this census printing done. You direct it. And I am inquired of, occasionally, by a timid friend, Why preparatory part of the census printing should be do you introduce this resolution here? Because left under the control of the Superintendent of the you told me to. You demanded action. I have Census Board and the Secretary of the Interior. That law so stipulated that it should be so left composed of a majority of Democrats. Gales & given you action. I submitted it to a committee there. They have had all the preparatory print- Seaton, Gideon & Co., Rives, Hamilton, and ing done as fast as they could. Then there was Donelson & Armstrong, are printers in this city. another part of the printing which Congress When we come forward to act, the resolution says said should be reserved, to be done according as we shall have this printing done. I make a conyou might direct hereafter. What printing is tract with Donelson & Armstrong upon such that? It is the compendium, making-if you publish this historical account-about two vol- ble. I then put the question, Are you willing to terms as may be considered proper and reasonaumes of the size of the Congressional Globe. And trust the joint committee of the Senate and House it was shown to my friend from Maryland, [Mr. EVANS,] who made a speech yesterday, not an to make a contract that will be fair and honorable? We are told that there will be fraud. hour ago, by the Suprintendent of the Census, that the size of this historical part, if published, they say that, they impugn the character and Why, gentlemen must remember, that when would only make a volume of the size of the Con-integrity of that committee. Sir, I should feel myself unworthy of a seat here if I could pander to my party predilections-as strong as they are-if I could so forget myself as to make a contract that would be unreasonable, or give a compensation to enrich my political friends at the sacrifice of justice or of the rights of my country. What would that committee do? That committee would call upon Blair & Rives, as one of the members of that committee has already done upon Mr. Rives, and inquire, What did you get for the printing of the census in 1842 and 1843? Answer, $137,000. We have had that to start upon. We would then call upon Gales & Seaton, Gideon & Co., and Mr. Rives and others, to learn what diminution of prices had occurred since that time. tion. Why not have this resolution in such shape that when the committee come to the conclusion that they cannot make a reasonable contract with Donelson & Armstrong, that they shall make it with some other printer without coming back to the House? Mr. GORMAN. I apprehend that the gentleman's interrogation does not amount to anything. It results only in this, that if we cannot make a contract what are we then to do? The gentleman goes into a supposition that is not at all within the range of probability. Mr. HEBARD. It is within the range of a business transaction. Mr. STEPHENS, of Georgia. Will the gen- gentleman, and say as to what he would do, betleman allow me to ask him a question? Mr. GORMAN. With great pleasure. Mr. STEPHENS. I understand the gentleman to state that he had called upon Mr. Rives to learn what he would do this job for, and to be governed by his price. Mr. GORMAN. By all means. We would not certainly give the contract to Donelson & Armstrong without an understanding of the former prices. Mr. STEPHENS. Then another question: Why does the gentleman come in here and ask the House in advance to say that we shall give it to Messrs. Donelson & Armstrong? Mr. GORMAN. I was just coming to that point, which I hope to eliminate to the gentleman's entire satisfaction. I stated that we had consulted with printers in reference to the price of printing. This has been all talked over in the committee, and I am now but recapitulating. Why did we put Donelson & Armstrong's names in here? I will tell my friend: For the very same reason that if his party were in power, they would put the names of Gales & Seaton, or Gideon & Co., there. Mr. STEPHENS. I have no party. Mr. GORMAN. The gentleman says he has no party. Mr. STANTON, of Kentucky. I desire simply to ask the gentleman from Indiana if it is not his recollection, and whether it is not the recollection of the House, that the preparatory printing of the forms necessary for the taking of the census was done at the "Republic office," and if, when we had that subject under consideration, it did not appear to this House that we could not alter the schedules in a single particular, because the Secretary of the Interior had caused this preliminary printing to be done before we had passed the bill? While we were engaged in passing that bill, I made repeated efforts, and other gentlemen made repeated efforts, to change those schedules; but we could not do it. We could not get a particular description of hemp growing in my State ineluded in the schedule. We had been frustrated by the action of the Secretary of the Interior, who had given the job to the partisan editors of the "Republic." I Mr. GORMAN. The gentleman has fully explained that matter, and I need not repeat it. will tell my honorable friend from Georgia that party has something to do with this matter. It would be dishonorable in me to disguise it. Were I in power I would give what patronage was to be given fairly and properly to my political friends instead of to my political enemies. Mr. HEBARD. I want to make a simple inquiry. I understand the gentleman from Indiana to state that the resolution only authorizes the committee to make a contract with Donelson & Armstrong. In case they make no reasonable contract I would ask him what they then intendoing? Mr. GORMAN. I will answer. The contract with Donelson & Armstrong for the printing of this matter is to be made upon such terms as the committee shall deem reasonable and proper, and not what Donelson & Armstrong shall deem reasonable. That is my answer. Mr. HEBARD. That does not answer my question. After the committee shall have come to their conclusion of what price will be reasonable, and Messrs. Donelson & Armstrong will not accept the terms proposed, what do they then propose to do? Mr. GORMAN. There is no other remedy then but to report the fact to the House. Mr. HEBARD. I want to ask another ques Mr. GORMAN. I will not retort upon the cause I will not enter into that sort of discussion. I shall confine myself to the facts; and, as gentlemen have been kind enough to listen to what I have said, I beg them to hear me further upon the facts of the matter. It has been said here that Donelson & Armstrong are partisan editors. True; they are. Here is a job that is to be given to some one, and I ask any gentleman upon that side of the House, if he had the power, would he not give it to his political friends who would do it for an equally reasonable price? Mr. FLORENCE. May I ask a single question? Do I understand the chairman of the Committee on Printing to say the public printer, so called, is unable to perform this printing? Mr. GORMAN. I have made no such declaration. Mr. FLORENCE. That he is not entitled to it under his contract? Mr. GORMAN. Under the law. Mr. FLORENCE. I want to understand the difference between awarding patronage to a Democrat with a newspaper and a Democrat without a newspaper. I cannot understand why a constituent of mine-and I make that declaration herewho is a Democrat, and by whose vote, in part, I hold a seat in this House, should not be as well considered as a Democrat with a newspaper? Several MEMBERS. That is the point. means. Mr. FLORENCE. I will beg the gentleman's permission to say another word. Mr. GORMAN. I cannot yield further. man The SPEAKER. The gentleman from Pennsylvania is not in order, as the gentleman from Indiana refuses to yield the floor. Mr. GORMAN. My friend must excuse me, but I cannot yield. Mr. FLORENCE. Only one word. [Laughter.] Mr. GORMAN. The gentleman appeals so strongly that I cannot resist. I yield. Mr. FLORENCE. I do not trouble the House much. I am a listener, a learner, a pupil here; but, sir, my whole political life will bear me out in the declaration that I go behind no man in awarding what patronage I can by my personal influence and vote to Democrats. Mr. GORMAN. That is exactly right. [Laughter.] I am willing that that sentiment shall be imbodied in my speech. I ask my friends upon the opposite side of the House to remember that at the extra session of Congress in 1842-'43 a resolution was introduced into one of the branches of the Government in these words: Resolved, That Blair & Rives be dismissed as the public printer or printers of the Senate. It was passed by a Whig party vote, and stands upon your records as a living witness coming up in judgment against you. That is admitted. This is not a parallel case to that at all. This I say to my Democratic friends is a simple question whether we shall give it to our friends or not. That is all there is in it. What more do we propose? "The work to be executed under the direction of the Secretary of the Interior, and to be paid for as it progresses by the head of the Census Bureau, with power to abate from the amount stipulated if the work, when executed, shall prove deficient or below the standard which may be agreed upon." I ask my friends what more is there in this transaction? Donelson & Armstrong are to do it, and it is complained because their names are inserted here. I tell you, if that contract can be given them, so far as my influence and vote go, they shall have it. Why will I select them in preference to other Democrats? I will do so, I tell my friends, because they are the organs of the Democratic party. Is that plain enough? Is it understood? I beg my friend from North Carolina to let by-gones be by-gones. I will not raise Banquo's ghost here. I will not put the cup to his lips. I am willing to stand side by side with my honorable friend from North Carolina to do battle with him for the great Democratic principles of my country. I do not care whether he voted for the compromise or not. I am not going to put the test to his lips, if he sees proper now to march under the banner of the Democratic party as it shall be laid down by the Baltimore Convention. I ask him, a veteran in the cause of Democracy, when he comes before the country, not to tell the people that he is going to prescribe rules for the party, which, if not adopted, he will separate himself from them. I ask him to leave a little to the generous confidence of friends with whom he has been associated all his life-a little to the confidence of those friends who hold the country dear-who hold the perpetuation of our institutions above all price. He should act with them, and because of the declarations of an individual who has thought proper to be his antagonist upon a political principle, he certainly is not going to stifle his voice in the cause of his country. Mr. VENABLE. I trust that no man here will suppose that I am deserting principles, which I have professed for more than thirty years, because of my dissatisfaction with any individual. My principles are independent of individuals. They are founded upon the convictions of my understanding, the approbation of my conscience, and the cordial acceptance of my heart. From my intercourse with my gallant friend, I shall be proud to act with him at all times; but I shall never act either with or without my friends, under circumstances by which I shall forfeit my self-respect. Mr. GÖRMAN. I have no fears that my honorable friend will ever be called upon to act with any other organization than that great and glorious Democratic party, that has borne the banner of their country always. They are always for their country. I am proud to say to-day, before God and my country, that I am for that country right, but in the last resort, right or wrong. I hope that I may not find my honorable friend, who has differed with us upon certain questions, which have agitated the country from centre to circumference during the last Congress, going up to the Washington Union and saying, "I hold you responsible for your opinions-you shall not share in the patronage which I can bestow, because you differ with me upon these subjects." My friend, when he says that he will proscribe such opinions, could only expect to be proscribed in turn. I hope that no such necessity may occur. Mr. VENABLE. Will the gentleman allow me to say, that I proposed to open this subject to free bidding everywhere. I said that they had no claims upon me individually. I do not proscribe them, but I open the bidding to the printers of the United States, so that we may have a fair and free competition. Mr. GORMAN. This resolution proposes to leave this matter to the committee. It is not a question to be left to Donelson & Armstrong. It is a question which our friends are called upon to leave to the committee which you have constituted in this House. We call upon you to leave the reasonableness and propriety of that contract to the committee. Are you willing to do it? Have you confidence in their integrity and purpose of character to discharge that duty? Mr. EVANS. I will ask the gentleman before he is done to tell this House why it is improper to let this printing by contract, and why it is the contract system is now to be abandoned? The instance the gentleman gave was in 1841, before the contract system was entered into. Now, I want the gentleman to state how much this printing will cost. I am informed that it will cost about million of dollars. Mr. GORMAN. I am authorized to say, upon the authority of the very best printers, that it will not cost half of $500,000. These diversions upon this occasion have led me off from some of the facts in this case. Mr. EVANS. Speak to the contract. Mr. GORMAN. I was about to speak upon the question of the contract system. It is known to that gentleman, as he remarked yesterday upon the floor, that the contract system had led to difficulty, and frauds upon the country enormous in their character. The contract system lets in every individual to come in and bid as low as possible, and their ruling motive seems to have been, that after a while they were to go before Congress and ask that they might be released from an onerous bargain. Such is the experience-such is the language of my friend from Maryland, [Mr. EVANS.] He used that language then, and I presume he will use it again. I apprehend that this system of letting this work out by contract to the lowest bidder, is the ground-work of the most stupendous system of fraud ever perpetrated upon the people of this country. Mr. EVANS. Not if you furnish them with paper. Mr. GORMAN. If you furnish them with paper, type, and presses, it will not do. Every Committee on Printing have found at the bottom of this contract system all sorts of private understandings and bargains for the purpose of fleecing the Government. The Committee on Printing have found this in their experience now. Shall this matter be reconsidered? Why refer it to the Committee of the Whole on the state of the Union? What do you want to discuss? Do my friends who differ with me upon the subject of this contract want to get up a war between us upon the compromise measures, whether they are proper and right? I do pray you, avert such an evil. I am frank to say, that such a calamity to the Democratic party should be avoided; and the man who undertakes to arraign any one here for the purpose of making an additional sore, which is now in a fair way of being healed, is stabbing the party that gives him power. I can say to my friends who voted against these measures, that I feel proud of their association. I feel that I went further upon these great Southern questions than any man north of Mason and Dixon's line. I feel I can say to gentlemen who are not with us upon the compromise measures, "Peace, be still!" Does that voice-does that warning come from a Democrat who has wavered? Does that voice come from a Democrat who has ever yet thrown a fire-brand into the midst of his Southern friends? Does that warning come from one who has ever turned to the right or left upon the great eternal principles of non-intervention? Then I say to them that the prolongation of this discussion will run my friend from North Carolina, [Mr. VENABLE,] my friend from Virginia, [Mr. BoCOCK,] and my friend from Mississippi, [Mr. NABERS,] into a dilemma. I hope if they love the union, harmony, and organization of that great party that brought them into power, that they will heed the voice of warning. Mr. BOCOCK. I ask, what I do not often ask upon this floor, that the gentleman will yield me the floor for one moment. I ask this because of my very sincere respect and regard for the gentleman from Indiana, [Mr. GORMAN.] I do not often ask any gentleman who is speaking to allow me the privilege of introducing one word while he is speaking. While the gentleman from Indiana is proclaiming peace to the Democratic party upon one subject, I ask him if he does not know that there are other subjects upon which the Democratic party are divided? I ask if he does not feel in that loyal and honest heart of his, that there is as much need of harmony upon those other questions as in relation to the compromise? And I ask him, if he expects us here to say Peace, when his friends-I do not say him-proclaim peace only upon one subject, and give us war to the knife upon other vital subjects? I ask him if it will do to tell me that the friends of the Washington Union will give us peace upon the compromise, when they are giving us war, and war to the knife, upon the subject of State-rights? Mr. GORMAN. I apprehend that more evidence has been given by the honorable gentleman from Virginia, [Mr. Bocock,] and that it is the very thing to be avoided. Where is the Democrat here who does not see a monster exhibiting itself here, a hydra-headed monster, which is stinging the very heart of the Democratic party? Where is there an individual who has witnessed the assault of my gallant friend from Virginia, [Mr. Bocock,] who will not agree with me in saying, "Peace, be still." Supposing that one of our friends, who conducts a newspaper, does not agree with the honorable gentleman from Virginia, [Mr. Bocock]-supposing that upon the subject of State-rights he does not concur fully in some of the details, I say to the gentlemen that we intend to put no poison in their cups. Mr. NABERS. The remark I intend to submit is not at all intended to interfere with the progress of this discussion, nor is it intended to indicate that I feel injured by not being permitted to address the House this morning. I wish simply to know if there is any new question before the House differing from the one upon which I had the floor this morning? [Laughter.] The SPEAKER. Does the gentleman from Mississippi call the gentleman from Indiana [Mr. GORMAN] to order? Mr. NABERS. No-I only asked for information. [Laughter.] Mr. GORMAN, (resuming.) I was simply saying that objections had been urged to Donelson & Armstrong. That subject was my text. Why? The honorable gentleman from North Carolina [Mr. VENABLE] had asked, why? With regard to certain questions-certain political principles, I was giving as a reason why they ought not to have weight. I am in order, I believe; why? because I am directing my remarks to the point whether the names of Donelson & Armstrong should be put at the head of the resolution. But I am done upon the subject upon which I was speaking. I leave that to the magnanimity of men who have never failed to show it when they have been put to the test; I leave that to the magnanimity of men who are called upon on this occasion to regard the admonition which I have in an humble way suggested to them," Peace, be still." Do I propose to Northern men to put any cup to their lips? Do I require them to say that every line, sentence, syllable, comma and semi-colon of the fugitive slave law is right? Do I require my honorable friend from North Carolina [Mr. VENABLE] to say that every line and syllable of the Texas boundary bill is right. I do not require any such thing. I do require acquiescence in these measures; I desire peaceable acquiescence in them. I come back now to the question of this printing; and I appeal to the gentlemen upon the other side of the House to know whether, if they held the power and had this contract to give, and the choice was left to them, at the same fair and reasonable rates, they would not give it to their political friends? Mr. BELL. No, not without competition. Mr. GORMAN. Ah! then there is a gentleman sui generis. He belongs to a different race of men from any that I have ever yet seen. He must belong to some party that I have never yet heard of. [Laughter.] He would not prefer a political friend-one possessing all the elements of qualification-to a political opponent! God save me from such a political partisan as that! He is an Ishmaelite. [Laughter.] He must have his hand against everybody and everybody's hand, I apprehend, must be turned against him. In conclusion, allow me to say to this House that I ask my friends to reconsider this question. Mr. BELL. Will the gentleman allow me to make an explanation? Mr. GORMAN. Why, yes, with pleasure, if it is not too long. Mr. BELL. I will not make it long. Mr. GORMAN. I want to know, first, if the gentleman is the one who answered me just now? Mr. BELL. I am the man. [Laughter.] Mr. GORMAN. I am glad to see you, sir. [Renewed laughter.] Mr. GORMAN. Not at all. The gentleman wants to pursuade us, that we tie our own hands by putting in those potent words, "Donelson & Armstrong;" that is the bugbear. Mr. BELL. You ask the House to tie your hands for you. Mr. GORMAN. I turned to the gentlemen on the other side of the House, and asked them if, in giving this job, they had to choose between a political friend and a political foe-occupying equal positions in society, of equal ability and integrity, and willing to take it at the same reasonable prices, they would not prefer to give it to their political friend? The gentleman answered no. Mr. BELL. That was not the question. Mr. GORMAN. I answered that the gentleman must certainly be sui generis. I did not mean anything personal. Mr. BELL. Oh, I did not understand you so. Mr. GORMAN. Well, then, allow me to proceed. This resolution-to come back to it againhas been ordered to be referred to the Committee of the Whole on the state of the Union. When it gets there all these matters about the question of State rights and Free-Soil, and the Massachusetts coalition, will be brought up; the House will be kept in a furor for ten or fifteen days, and when this resolution gets out, I expect the millennium will come. Mr. HALL, (interrupting.) I do not know that I perfectly understand the resolution which is under discussion. I do understand it to propose to make the action of the committee definite with regard to this printing. Now, I ask the gentleman from Indiana if he will accept the amendment which I hold in my hand, and which is in these words: Provided, That no contract made by said committee shall be of any binding force or effect until the same is reported to and approved of by both Houses of Congress. ness. Mr. GORMAN. The Committee on Printing are to make a contract under the law of 1846. That law provides that it shall be a part of their duty to attend to this portion of the public busiWhen the committee have made a contract with Donelson & Armstrong, they will do just as they have done in the case of Mr. Hamilton, and in other cases. I have before me the contract with Trenholm & Belt; the committee reported it to this House, and it is marked "House of Rep resentatives-Miscellaneous Documents, No. 10.' The contract is laid before the House; everybody reads it; everybody knows what it is; and if that contract has upon its face an unreasonable rate of compensation, it is within the province of this House at any moment to arraign that contract and to know the causes-the why and the where fore. Mr. HALL. The gentleman does not understand me. I do not want to get into any difficulty with any contractors to do the printing of this House. I want the contract, when it is entered into, to bind both us and them. I do not want any afterclaps, any quarrels, any difficulties or misunderstandings; and I prefer, therefore, that the action of this committee shall come to us for approval. Let us have no more of these discussions, whether we shall set aside a contract after we have entered into it. Mr. GORMAN. I do understand the gentleman's amendment, and I now say that if the Speaker decides that I have a right to accept that amendmeat, I will most cheerfully do it. I have not the slightest objection that our contract shall be reported to this House, and that the House shall confirm or reject it. My friend from Missouri must see, however, that the House will have to repeal the law of 1846, before we can do that. That law left it to the Committee on Printing. Still I have no kind of objection to the amendment. I will accept cile the feelings of any individual. But, why ask me to accept it unless it will do that? Mr. HALL. I will say to the gentleman, that it will reconcile me to the resolution. Mr. BELL. I understood the gentleman to make an appeal to the members on this side of the House, knowing, at the same time, that if he kept the floor under the permission of the other gentle-it-if it is in my power to do so-if it will reconman [Mr. SKELTON] who lets it out, they would have no opportunity to reply. I may have been out of order in saying "No, not without competition," but I wish it to be understood, that in saying that, I meant that I would not place in jeopardy the interests of my country to favor an individual of my own party, by giving an exorbitant price for the work. I would do as any prudent individual would. Mr. GORMAN. would. I presume the gentleman Mr. BELL. Now, I understand that by this resolution you tie your own hands. Mr. HAVEN, (Mr. GORMAN yielding the floor.) I desire to make a suggestion or two, lest there should be a misapprehension as to the views that some portion, at least, of the Committee on Printing entertain upon the subject of the extent of the authority conferred upon that committee by the joint resolution of 1846. I understand that it is the opinion of the Joint Committee on Printing, that the printing of these |
