you exclude that type of legislation, or are you merely referring to an FEPC act?

Mr. MORRISON. No, I am talking about education in the schools. And to qualify these folks for jobs.

Mr. HAWKINS. Are you indicating that there are no qualified Negroes in the metropolitan area of Washington who could fill the positions in the savings and loan industry?

Mr. MORRISON. If we were to search for them, I think they could be found, yes.

Mr. HAWKINS. Well, is it that you do not need any additional employees, or that you have an oversupply at the present time, that causes you not to search for any?

Mr. MORRISON. There, again, I am only testifying personally.

As my friend, here, says, we are getting sufficient help, but we do have to go through a long process of qualification, because the financial institution is protected by the FBI, and we have to screen these people very carefully.

Mr. HAWKINS. You do not think that that interferes with the employment of Negroes, do you?

Mr. MORRISON. I did not say that.

Mr. HAWKINS. Well, you indicated that you must screen them.
Mr. MORRISON. We have to. That is right.

Mr. HAWKINS. You are not indicating that your failure to employ any more Negroes than have been employed in the industry is due to the fact that they cannot be screened by the FBI?

Mr. MORRISON. Again, I am only speaking personally, Mr. Congressman. I am not speaking for the industry or First Federal or anyone else, just myself.

Mr. HAWKINS. Well, I just do not quite understand you when you give these various reasons why Negroes are not employed, and then you indicate that these reasons are not valid.

Mr. MORRISON. I merely said that I think the attitude in the indusup for a change. I did not say that they were doing it now. Mr. HAWKINS. When is this attitude going to change? And what is going to cause it to change?

Mr. MORRISON. Personally, I hope, soon.

Mr. HAWKINS. We hope with you.

Mr. MORRISON. I really do.

Mr. ROOSEVELT. Let me just comment, if my colleague will yield for a minute. I think I should also say that we have to have more than hope, and I think you might pass the word that it has to be more than hope.

Mr. MORRISON. I would be glad to, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. MARTIN. I noted, Mr. Morrison, that you stated that legislation along this line would not solve the problem. Could you give the committee some suggestions as to how you think that this problem we are concerned with could be solved?

Mr. MORRISON. I cannot, Mr. Martin.

The reason I say that: I think back to the prohibition amendment, which was a good amendment; it was a good cause; but I think that the fact that we could not enforce it caused more trouble in the United States than we ever had before, because it made more people have disrespect for the law than ever before.

Now, any such legislation, which tries to legislate social progress, or force a situation, is liable to have the same fate as the prohibition amendment.

Mr. ROOSEVELT. Will my colleague yield?

Mr. Morrison, some of the so-called social legislation has been successful. You take the SEC laws. This is in very much the same category. What we were trying to do was to establish regulations which basically would eliminate as much as one possibly could of misrepresentation to the public and better honesty in the securities area. And certainly you would not say, as a financial man, that this has not been reasonably successful, would you?

Mr. MORRISON. It is successful.

Mr. ROOSEVELT. Right. It is successful. So that there are areas where, if the legislation is sound and it is properly administered, this kind of legislation can be helpful, can it not?

Mr. MORRISON. It can, Mr. Roosevelt.

Mr. ROOSEVELT. Have you read H.R. 405?

Mr. MORRISON. No, I have not.

Mr. ROOSEVELT. Would you mind if I instructed counsel to send you a copy for your comment?"

Mr. MORRISON. I would be glad to have it.

Mr. ROOSEVELT. Personally; I am not asking you officially.
Mr. MORRISON. Thank you.

Mr. MARTIN. In applications for loans, is it customary in the District in this area to specify as to whether they are white or black in making an application?

Mr. MORRISON. My personal observation, my own observation, is that it is not.

Mr. MARTIN. It is not required on an application?

Mr. MORRISON. No, it is not required.

Mr. MARTIN. In looking over an application for a loan, I assume that you look it over purely from the financial standpoint, and the ability of the borrower to make the payments, and so forth, so that you would have a good, sound loan?

Mr. MORRISON. That is right, sir.

Mr. MARTIN. So there is no discrimination that is practiced, as far as the lending of money is concerned?

Mr. MORRISON. That is correct.

Mr. ROOSEVELT. Mr. Morrison, we want to thank both of you gentlemen for your kindness in coming before the committee.

Mr. Elsberg, did you have something further?

Mr. ELSBERG. Yes. May I give a little explanation for the record? This has nothing to do with what this gentleman said.

You mentioned some statistics, and we mentioned some employee numbers, 52 percent colored. We are primarily outside the District of Columbia. We have 77 branches, and 10 of them are here. Most of them are Alexandria, Falls Church, and so forth, so that the percentages of the employees that we discussed, as compared with the 52 percent, are not applicable.

I just say this because of the 2,000 that we spoke of, I would say a few hundred are in the District, and that is all.

Mr. ROOSEVELT. Of course, Dr. Elsberg, the problem is, however, a Metropolitan Washington problem, because many of the people who live in the District work outside.

Mr. ELSBERG. There are some, but in our type of store, which is a neighborhood thing, and primarily we are neighborhood, we try to get employees in that area, primarily because of the peculiar hours that we work. And so the ratio, the percentage of colored and white, in Fairfax, Falls Church, Alexandria, would not be anywhere near the number in the District.

And I say that just because of what was made a part of the record. Mr. ROOSEVELT. It might be interesting for you to take your District of Columbia operations and see whether they do vary very much. For instance, are your Washington outlets more heavily staffed with

nonwhites than those in the outer areas?

Mr. ELSBERG. I would say-and this is an approximate figure-we just opened a store at 12th and E, and I would say that was primarily colored.

Mr. ROOSEVELT. I think it would be very helpful if you could give us a few facts along that line, to show that especially, since, as you say, you must try to take employees who are in the general area, if possible.

Along that line, therefore, if you could show that within the District of Columbia, you had quite a different picture, let's say, than you did in Fairfax County or other areas, I think it would be helpful to the committee.

Mr. ELSBERG. I can say definitely that the number of employees in the District of Columbia stores-there is a larger percentage of colored than there is of white.

Mr. ROOSEVELT. Well, if you have any specific figures, I think they would be helpful.

Mr. ELSBERG. I would be glad to send them to you. I do not have them available.

Mr. ROOSEVELT. Thank you very much.

And we certainly appreciate your help.

The committee will stand adjourned until 10 a.m. tomorrow morning.

(The above-mentioned material follows:)

District of Columbia area survey

NOTE. Col. No. 1 clearly illustrates that equal employment opportunity is an effective practice of Drug Fair.

Cols. 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 represent the responsible positions occupied by nonwhites in ratio to our total employment for each category. This chart makes it quite apparent that nonwhites are actually engaged in pursuits of a responsible nature and in a number and percentage that is highly favorable to the overall number of qualified applicants or professionally trained personnel available.

Pharmacists, District of Columbia stores

Active, registered Negro pharmacists--
Total active, registered pharmacists_
Percent of Negro pharmacists to total.

135

1, 035

13

Number of pharmacists in Drug Fair in District of Columbia..

4

Total pharmacists in Drug Fair in District of Columbia.
Percent of Negro pharmacists in Drug Fair...----

17

23.5

Number of drugstores owned and operated by Negroes..
Total drugstores in District of Columbia___

30

292

10

Percent of relationship----

NOTE. In a professional capacity, Negroes employed in Drug Fair, District of Columbia, constitute 23 percent of the work force. This is far greater than the number of Negrowhite ratio of active, registered pharmacists in the District of Columbia.

NOTE. The above chart indicates that white and nonwhite employees occupy the same type of positions. Employment and pay is based solely on qualifications and job performance with equality for whites and nonwhites.

This survey does not include our office staff numbering many nonwhites in the following positions: assistant to the vice president, typists, clericals, bookkeepers, electronic data processing development, mail room, etc.

WASHINGTON URBAN LEAGUE, INC.
Washington, D.C., June 3, 1963.

DEAR MORRIS: This is in reply to your letter dated May 28, 1963, in which you related your firm's experience with the Roosevelt committee and your reaction thereto.

With regard to the questions you raised, I can supply pertinent information from the public record that may be helpful in some degree toward your understanding.

As one of the contacts the committee made in its effort to get an overview of the District of Columbia employment situation, the Washington Urban League joined in the consensus that an objective across-the-board appraisal of the District of Columbia's major employers does not reflect a satisfying picture with respect to the implementation of merit-hiring and equal employment opportunity. This view was based simply on (1) a determination of the total work force of firms recognized as leaders in each industry; (2) the proportion of Negro employees; (3) the job categories to which Negroes are assigned, i.e., top management, middle management, unskilled operations, etc.; and, (4) the income gap between Negroes and whites in designated industries.

Of course there are cogent reasons that, in some instances, make this disparity understandable, but I am confident that if you took a detached objective view you would subscribe to this conclusion. This conclusion did not involve attitudes, procedures, and related considerations, but was based primarily on what the statistics showed.

With regard to my personal opinion of Drug Fair in this connection, I have been highly impressed in my contacts with you and your associates. It is my considered opinion that Drug Fair has a positive action program in which job openings are made available without race considerations. I can personally attest this on the basis of examples in our files that record your requesting the league to refer applicants for job openings in categories other than the tradi'tional; and several instances in which league referrals were accepted for announced job openings.

Further, I can attest that you and I have met regularly in cordial sessions in which we discussed Drug Fair's employment needs, possible openings to which the league could make referrals, general assessment of Drug Fair's activity in the area of our mutual concern and related matters.

In all candor, however, it has been my opinion that up to a point in the recent past, Drug Fair, just as was the case with other major employers, may have had a fair employment practices policy, but had no aggressive, positive action program designed to implement its policy.

My contacts and conferences with you over the past year, and the tangible results that have accrued, have led to my conviction that Drug Fair does in fact now have an exemplary action program that, in time will enable the company and the urban league to point with pride to achievement in this area.

It is our sincere hope here that the league and Drug Fair will continue the excellent relationship that has been developed, with the community as beneficiary.

It is my conclusion, however, that the ultimate determination with regard to the subject of this discussion will not be made by the league, or any congressional committee, but by the action and conscience of Drug Fair management. Cordially,

ROBERT L. TAYLOR,

Associate Director, Job Development Department.

(Whereupon, at 11:15 a.m., the committee recessed, to reconvene

at 10 a.m., Tuesday, May 28, 1963.)