Answer. Otherwise-privately. No white citizens of the county knew when they were organized.

Question. Did not the militia law, passed prior to that by the legislature, require an open registry?

Answer. Yes, sir.

Question. Who was the person deputized by the governor or State authorities at Columbia to organize these black companies in Laurens County?

Answer. I do not know.

Question. If it was done secretly, who did it?

Answer. I do not know.

Question. Do you not know that a son of Joe Crews did it?

Answer. I have seen him with that company when it was drilling.

Question. With the village company?

Answer. Yes, sir. I never saw him with a sword or emblem of office on the ground with them.

Question. Did this militia law apply to the whole population, white as well as black? Answer. Yes, sir.

Question. Do you know of any efforts in Laurens County to organize white companies?

Answer. Yes, sir; we organized a company of men and sent a list of the names of the officers..

Question. To whom?

Answer. To Governor Scott, and a copy to the adjutant general. That there might be no excuse that the communications had not been received, we sent it to the adjutant general's department and to the governor, by mail.

"Question. Was that in 1870 ?

Answer. Yes, sir, about the time these companies were organizing. The law required that these officers should be appointed by the governor. I requested him to receive this company as part of the National Guards, appointing the commissioned officers designated, and I received no response to that letter; it was treated with contempt, I think.

Question. In the face of a fact like that in regard to the action of the white people, what impression did it make on the public mind there with that immense amount of fixed ammunition sent to these negroes?

Answer. Well, all these facts, connected with many others, created a bad feeling and a want of confidence in the Government.

Question. Did it create alarm and apprehension?

Answer. Yes, sir; the people felt that they had to take care of themselves, and put themselves in a condition to defend and protect themselves.

Question. I suppose the people of Laurens County knew there was no necessity for fixed ammunition in drilling?

Answer. None at all. Two weeks before the election-probably in September-another matter, of which I was cognizant, occurred, which caused excitement. A large demonstration was held at Laurens Court-House by the negroes, and when the procession was formed, it was headed by the militia company from Laurens Court-House, armed with fixed bayonets, and the armed militia company from Clinton, and numbered fifteen hundred negroes in the procession. Large numbers of these were armed with shot-guns and pistols, and clubs and weapons of every possible description. The republican orators followed this escort, and held their meeting right in the public square-on the public square, or within one hundred and fifty yards of it, with these bayonets stacked around them, and I know the fact, for I went to this meeting to hear the speakers. Question. Who were the speakers?

Answer. Crews was a speaker; Wallace was a speaker and candidate for Congress; Chamberlain, the attorney general, was a speaker; Moses, the speaker of the house of representatives, and half a dozen others were on the stand; they all spoke; and, in the eyes of these people, a white man was not allowed to hear-to get upon his legs and hear; if he did, was jerked down by various parties; and the guard detailed to move around through the crowd, with arms in their hands, offered all sorts of indignities to the white men present. I do not suppose there were more than twenty-five; a few young men from the country, who came there from curiosity, and a few from the town, went down to listen to these speeches. I know on that occasion a negro there who had been in sympathy with the white people-the democratic party-was chased out of the crowd and run through the town by the republicans.

Question. By the negroes, you mean?

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Answer. Yes, sir, by negroes, with arms in their hands. His life was threatened. Two or three weeks before the election another negro-a very quiet old negro-came to the town; he was understood to be in sympathy with the white people; he was mobbed and severely beaten for his political opinions. I know, because I was chairman of the democratic organization of the county, that there was such a reign of terror among the negroes, against those who sympathized with the democratic party, that they could not

express their sentiments. It would have cost any negro his life to have stated, in a crowd where there was a dozen negroes, that he was a democrat.

Question. There were a few negroes in Laurens that felt inclined to go with the democratic party?

Answer. Yes, sir, but they were not allowed to do it.

Question. Did they vote the republican ticket?

Answer. I think a very few did; they did at one precinct, probably, I do not believe a democratic colored man's life would have been safe in the county, unless he was in close proximity to and had the protection of white people who could shield and protect hin. All that sort of thing brought about intense political feeling and a state of anxiety which culminated in this riot.

Question. On the day after the election?

Answer. Yes, sir.

Question. Unless you know some fact that you think ought to be stated, of which I know nothing, I am through questioning you, sir. If you know anything pertaining to this question in Laurens or any other county, you can state it.

Answer. I do not think that I know anything else which I need to state. I can state, that, so far as I know, there has been no disturbance of a serious character or excitement since this thing.

Question. Things have been quiet in Laurens County since the last October election? Answer. Yes, sir.

By the CHAIRMAN:

Question. How did you find the material for a company of seventy-five men on the spur of the moment there?

Answer. It was court day, and I suppose there were fifty men in attendance on court. I think there were at least fifty arms-bearing men in the town. Everybody who was present immediately fell into line at my request, and at the request or suggestion of half a dozen that we had better organize.

Question. How long was that after the first alarm or pistol shot?

Answer. This organization was after all the firing was done. The men were dead, and the bodies had been examined. It was fifteen minutes, I suppose. Question. You say the men were dead?

Answer. Yes, sir; it was after the killing.

Question. You say men were dead, and the bodies had been examined?

Answer. Yes, sir, it was some fifteen minutes. The riot was spent. The shooting occupied, perhaps, five minutes. In the meantime, parties had seized these arms and were shooting in the air.

Question. Were the bodies of the men killed between the court-house and the tenement occupied for arms?

Answer. No, sir; they were near that tenement.

Question. Were they on the same side of the tenement as the one on which the fighting occurred between Cahlo and Richardson?

Answer. There was one man wounded within that tenement.

Question. Do you recollect the names of the two men who were killed?

Answer. No, sir; I know the name of the man who was wounded was Crews, a negro. Question. Had all the men who composed this impromptu company, which you organized, arms?

Answer. No, sir; very few of them had arms; only such arms as they seized at the armory.

Question. Were they all armed in the same manner?

Answer. I do not think they had got arms, but there were arms enough there, and after a while they got supplied.

Question. Did not the white men control the armory

Answer. They did at that time.

Question. Had not the negroes fled?

Answer. Yes, sir.

Question. And the white men had control of all the arms in the town?

Answer. These two, and one negro wounded.

Question. Were any others killed?

Answer. No, sir, not at the riot; there were some parties killed in the county that night.

Question. Did the riot keep on in that county?

Answer. I do not know whether the riot kept on when these parties were killed. The bodies were found next day.

Question. Had it connection with it?

Answer. It followed.

Question. You have omitted in your statement all mention of that. Had that any connection with these proceedings in the town?

Answer. I think it was consequent, and the result of the same feeling that existed at that riot, and was consequent upon it.

Question. Who were the men who were found dead the next morning?

Answer. There was a negro by the name of Simmons-young Eb. Simmons. He was found some three miles below town.

By Mr. VAN TRUMP :

Question. Was his name Riley, also, for they have double names.

Answer. No, sir. I will state all. There was Eb. Simmons, he lived two or three days, about four miles out on the Laurens railroad, at Benjamin's turnout. There was a negro named Bill Riley, who was employed at this armory as a keeper of arms, and to guard over the arms at night, and a man named Volney Powell, who was a State constable, and who was a candidate for probate judge, and declared elected. There was a negro killed at Martin's Depot, fourteen miles from the court-house, on the railroad, named Perrin. He was a member of the previous legislature and a candidate at this time. Then there was a negro, I think, killed on the premises of a man named Copeland. I do not know his name at all. I think there was a negro wounded there, also.

By the CHAIRMAN:

Question. Had your citizens in the town pursued these men out to this distance? Answer. I do not know whether they did or not

Question. You took none of your company out that far ?

Answer. O, no, sir. My company was put upon guard that night. When we took charge of the arms, the immediate necessity for this company was gone, and it was disbanded entirely. When that company took charge of these arms, and everything was quiet, it went to the winds. It was for temporary protection.

Question. Was Powell in the town that day?

Answer. Powell, I think. was one of the managers of the election.

Question. Was Riley there that day?

Answer. I do not remember. I think He was; he lived there.

Question. Was not this man who was a candidate for the legislature there that day? Answer. He was.

Question. Was not Simmons there that day?

Answer. I do not know. He lived in the town there.

Question. These men were all found out three or four miles from the town.

Answer. Yes, sir.

Question. Do you know of your people pursuing them?

Answer. No, sir; I do not.

Question. How do you account for their deaths?

Answer. I think those people were known and prominent as connected with politics, and some of them-all, probably-were not in the best odor with the white people. They had made themselves prominent.

Question. Who do you believe killed them?

Answer. I believe some of the white people of either Laurens or Newberry or Spartanburgh killed them.

Question. Do you believe they were killed because of their connection with the political affairs of the country?

Answer. No, sir; I do not think they were killed because of that. They were known as prominent leaders, and Perrin, particularly, as a speaker, an ignorant speaker, who spoke incendiary language, and without even knowing what the sentiments of his words would be; and this man Eb. Simmons was a notorious bad man in every way. Riley was present wherever there was a fight or loud talking between a white man and a negro, and in bad order, and I think when this excitement was up, and it was understood to be a sort of struggle between negroes and whites, in this state of feeling parties who met them struck.

Question. How do you account for their killing Powell?

Answer. Powell had been acting the part of a partisan in this party. He was a State officer and had been marching through the streets of Laurens with this armed militia for months, singing, "Old John Brown is marching on," and all that, in the face of our community, insulting it in various ways, and had made himself obnoxious. I think if any other of the State constables were met they would not have been killed. Question. Was it the general sentiment that it was right to kill them for these reasons?

Answer. I never heard any approve it. But I did not think it was right.
Question. Did the general tone of public sentiment say it was right?

Answer. No, sir. I think it was generally regretted; but the general feeling was that this result followed natural causes.

Question. How many people came into your town that night?
Answer. A large number. I think twelve hundred.

Question. Do you think fifteen hundred ?

Answer. I don't know. A large number.

Question. Do you think there were two thousand?

Answer. No, sir.

Question. Do you think there were twenty-five hundred?

Answer. I have no idea that there were. Between one thousand and fifteen hundred. I would say fifteen hundred.

Question. Were they all armed?

Answer. I expect they were all armed. All I saw were armed. I saw very few. Question. With fifteen hundred people who could turn out, armed, in Laurens County on that notice, were you really apprehensive that these negroes were going to rise against you?

Answer. Yes, sir; we were.

Question. These arms were all at one depository at Laurens and one other at Clinton? Answer. Yes, sir.

Question. Those contained all the arms there for the purpose of being distributed? Answer. I think so.

Question. At the time these people came into town, the arms at Laurens were really in the control of the white people?

Answer. Yes, sir.

Question. And the arms at Clinton had also been taken possession of?

Answer. I do not know, but I think they had been.

Question. At that time what was the necessity of any further proceedings against the negroes, if there were fifteen hundred white men armed, and who had control of the arms designed for the negroes?

Answer. There was none at all; no necessity at all. It followed, as I suppose people were killed in New York during the riot there.

Question. Then it was a lawless murder of these men?

Answer. No, sir; I do not think so.

Question. You do not?

Answer. No, sir; I do not think so, as a man or as a lawyer. I think it was a political riot and disturbance, consequent upon great excitement, following political causes, and men were killed.

Question. Even you then do not think, although the necessity had ceased for public demonstration, that the shooting of these men was a lawless murder?

Answer. I do not think that these people who were simple, plain people, that the necessity had ceased.

Question. You saw a good many of these people that night?

Answer. No, sir; I did not see many of them. I judge of their number by hearsay. Question. Were they citizens of Laurens County?

Answer. I saw men the next day from Spartanburgh and Union.

Question. Were they responsible and prominent citizens?

Answer. I think the whole community, sir, were responsible for it.

Question. Were these men that you saw responsible?

Answer. O yes, sir; citizens of high standing. The whole people were there. Question. You do not want to compare that part of your community that come there with what constituted the mob of New York, do you?

Answer. Well, I do not. No, sir, I do not. But I think when it becomes a matter of excitement and political feeling all people participate. I do not think it would be murder in either case. I think educated people-civilized people-are as much subject to excitement, especially political and religious excitement, as the uneducated and the mass. It is a matter of temperament.

Question. You say you were at this meeting at which Crews and others spoke, and there was not more badgering there than at your political meetings usually? Is it not the practice of both parties here to interrogate speakers on the stand?

Answer. Yes, sir.

Question. Was that done to the usual extent ?

Answer. No, sir; it was not done at all that day.

Question. You said there was no more badgering than usual?

Answer. I said it generally of the canvass.

Question. How as to that meeting?

Answer. I do not think any questions were asked at all. We were alarmed and afraid.

Question. You were there. Was any indignity offered to you?

Answer. No, sir.

Question. You were about as prominent as any white man?

Answer. Yes, sir.

Question.. Did you see any indignity offered to anybody?

Answer. Yes, sir.

Question. Who?

Answer. I do not remember the name.

It was a white man.

Question. Was he making himself offensive?

Answer. No, sir: not at all.

Question. By whom was it offered?

Answer. I think by negroes detailed to act as a guard on that day. They were not allowed to take prominent positions in the meeting, but ordered to stand around and occasion taken to say not to talk; to keep quiet, unnecessarily.

Question. That was preserving order in the meeting?

Answer. But it was unnecessary.

Question. That is your judgment?
Answer. I speak from my judgment.
Question. Did you see any violence?

Answer. No, sir.

Question. Did they do more than to tell people who were talking to keep quiet? Answer. In my judgment the interference

Question. Did they do more than that?

Answer. They interfered unnecessarily, I think, with white people who were present; they showed a disposition to intrude upon them and make a row.

Question. You have stated what they said to persons standing around talking, that they must keep quiet. Did they do more that that?

Answer. I do not think they did.

Question. Do you consider that an indignity to a white man?

Answer. I do not take it, the bare fact; but the manner and the occasion when it was given.

Question. That was the extent of it?

Answer. Yes, sir; that was the extent as to the fact; but then a man could be asked to take a seat in such a way as to insult him, and I speak of the impression made on my mind.

Question. I suppose the negroes are not well trained, or as well trained, to do these things as white men?

Answer. Not at all.

By Mr. VAN TRUMP:

Question. Is not the negro brother largely capable of being insulting in his manner if disposed?

Answer. He can do it.

By the CHAIRMAN :

Question. Is there not a great disposition to resent anything like what are the privileges of the negroes, even though exercised in a proper manner?

Answer. No, sir; not at all. I think our people are as polite to the negroes as they would be to President Grant, and I believe they are much more kindly disposed to the negroes than they are to any other race of people on the globe. I know it, so far as my experience and observation are concerned.

Question. I wish they were all like you.

Answer. I speak for the people.

Question. Do you speak for those who go about whipping negroes?

Answer. I think I can speak for those

Question. Take the four hundred or the two hundred cases where men have been taken out of their beds in Spartanburgh County and whipped. Do you think that kind treatment?

Answer. If they have been so many; if there are two hundred negroes in Spartanburgh who are bad men, and are punished because the people are satisfied, by the way the administration of the State government is carried on, that the law cannot be made to reach these bad men.

Question. That is the way you account for it?

Answer. Yes, sir.

Question. Are you satisfied now that this is a fair solution of it?

Answer. I am satisfied of it. If the law was administered, as the law is administered in Massachusetts, or even in New York, there would be no trouble here. Question. From whom do you get that information?

Answer. I get it from my own observation in my own county, and from what I can find out of the Government.

Question. Have there been any negroes whipped in your county?

Answer. I do not think there have been for political causes at all. There may have been a quarrel, a personal or neighborhood affair, in which the negro may have been beaten.

Question. I am speaking of these cases of whipping, and I desire to know where you get your information as to the causes?