are opposed to anything of that sort. We think it is an outrage upon everything like free government.

Question. Is not that feeling inculcated to such an extent as almost to lead to violence?

Answer. No, sir; I do not believe it will lead to violence in that county.

Question. Is not the Government denounced at all times ás a despotism for imposing negro suffrage upon the people at all?

Answer. The leading white men connected with that party are denounced, or were, as men who were ruining the country for their own personal benefit.

Question. You misapprehend me. I do not speak of the government here, but the Government at large. Is not that the language used against the Government at large?

Answer. No, sir; I cannot say it is exactly denounced. There is a very stern opposition to it. The people do not like it. We believe it is wholly unnatural and ruinous to the best interests of this country. We believe that.

Question. That is the very point. Is not that the tone of remark and complaint to such an extent as to produce discontent among those people who make material for riots?

Answer. There is nothing like fear or an opinion that there is any danger in the world of our people resisting the General Government. This thing was no attack on the General or State government. It was an open fight between two races. I believe myself that just as long as this thing remains, and as long as there is an effort to incorporate two races like the black and the white in the same political organization, based on a numerical majority, with a majority on the part of the ignorant class, you may pass as many laws as you will in Congress or anywhere else, and these riots will occasionally take place, precisely like that one took place in New York, not on account of republicanism, nor because the negro was emancipated, or that he was allowed to vote. The seat of the whole disease, in my opinion, is the incorporation of two races that cannot amalgamate, either physically or mentally, in the same government based upon numerical majority. If we had the principle in this State of concurrent majorities, where the senate was under the control of one race and the house under another, we might get along, perhaps.

Question. Your own idea is, that if the negro was ignorant and the whites were intelligent, the two races are incompatible in one government?

Answer. Yes, sir; I do honestly believe the solution of this difficulty is the separation of the two races. The two races ought to be separated; that is my view. Either one or the other ought to be colonized. I tell you, as a citizen of South Carolina, I would rather be moved to-day by the General Government beyond the Mississippi, if they would pay me for my house, make a new State, and let the negro take this, or move the negro-one or the other. I think it is a fallacy, this effort to carry on gov ernment by these two races so widely distinct. It is a fallacy, and the sooner the American people find it out the better.

By Mr. VAN TRUMP:

Question. Do you not think that the republicans all over the United States, and especially those in power at Washington, ought to have come to that conclusion, by this time?

'Answer. Yes, sir. If these negroes were removed, it would create a vacuum and temporarily destroy our agriculture.

Question. How long has the experiment been tried?

Answer. Since 1868, and it grows worse from year to year.

Question. Anybody who will come down here and stay through one election, or visit the legislature, ought to be convinced that it is a total impossibility to carry on a government by the two races?

Answer. Yes, sir; totally.

By the CHAIRMAN:

Question. Do you not think that anybody coming here would be equally convinced that if the question were left to the white men, they would quickly disfranchise the negro and drive him out, and get rid of the General Government too?

Answer. I do not think there is any disposition to get rid of the General Government. We tried it once.

Question. But if the opportunity offered?

Answer. No, sir; we tried that once. We will go if they will let us go in peace. We believed, in the days of secession, that rather than have this constant collision at Washington between the two sections, we could get along better without it, and establish a government of our own. I believe that still, but I would not be willing to embark in another revolution. We have had enough of war. If they would give us justice at Washington, I am perfectly satisfied; if they remove our disabilities, and do not tax us to keep us in

4

Question. You still put the "if” in ?

Answer. Well, I say I do not want to engage in another revolution?

By Mr. VAN TRUMP:

Question. The chairman has asked you whether there was in your county any organization among the whites to give intelligence of this imminent danger of collision. Is there any more organization there than was on the frontiers among the whites to give intelligence to each other of attacks from the Indians?

Answer. There was no organization among the whites that I know of.
Question. You know of no Ku-Klux organization?

Answer. None in the world, nor no organization of any sort. I think it possible there was an understanding to this extent-being apprehensive of difficulty, we would have been a people devoid of sense not to think of the consequences and the mode of defense that should arise, and there was a general understanding that if anything took place among the young men, we would assemble at a certain point. The people had all been in the army; there was no necessity of organization. There was no association for the purpose of spreading information; nobody was pointed out as one who should be the messenger.

Question. If I understand the condition of South Carolina at present as to the feeling of these two races, you are standing on a volcano.

Answer. That is exactly it.

Question. And every person is alive to the danger, and if there is any immediately threatening danger, there is rapid communication?

Answer. Yes, sir. I know several families in my neighborhood where whole familes, for weeks before the election, did not go to bed; the women and children just laid down on pallets, believing that perhaps that building might be torched that night; that was our condition.

Question. Have there been any burnings in your county?

Answer. No, sir, I do not think there have been.

By Mr. STEVENSON:

Question. You are very confident there is no Ku-Klux organization in that county? Answer. That is my belief.

Question. On what do you found it?

Answer. On the fact that I have heard of no violence and no Ku-Klux.

Question. No violence?

Answer. Not in that county, not by disguised men; only the violence I have told you of

Question. Is there any difference in violence by disguised and undisguised men? Answer. I suppose Ku-Kluxism has a technical meaning in South Carolina, and was so understood by this committee; that these Ku-Klux were organizations combined together, and going out disguised to do violence.

Question. I do not understand it. If that is it, I am obliged to you for the definition. Answer. I do not know any definition.

Question. I understand it is an organization combined together to commit violence. Answer. I do not believe there is any such organization in Laurens County.

Question. Yet two thousand five hundred men appeared there in the town of Laurens and committed violence?

Answer. I do not know that two thousand five hundred men committed violence. They assembled, as I told you.

Question. It was committed as they assembled and went back?

Answer. I do not know how it was done. Those dead bodies were found next morning.

Question. Do you know where those men came from?

Answer. The most of them came from the county. I was at home that night, and I went to bed as usual, within half a mile of the public square. I did not see anybody in the public square. I did not go down to the village. I understand there were some men from Spartanburgh County, adjoining our county. It is about sixteen miles to the Spartanburgh line, and sixteen to the Union line. I understood these were men from those counties.

Question. What is the township adjoining yours?

Answer. There are no townships. There was an act passed dividing our State into townships. They were divided, but it fell still-born. They were named, I think, but nobody has ever treasured up their names. The act was repealed.

Question. Have you ever heard of Limestone Township, Spartanburgh County ?
Answer. No, sir. I know Limestone Springs.

Question. Is that where these men came from?

Answer. No, sir, that is too far away; they came from the borders of Enoree River. Question. Your information was that they come from Spartanburgh County, and not from the county seat?

Answer. No, sir; that is forty miles away-the county seat.

Question. How far is it to the county?

Answer. To the nearest point, I suppose, twelve miles.

Question. Where else did they come from?

Answer. I suppose they came from Laurens County principally. I never heard of anybody except from Laurens, Spartanburgh, and Union.

Question. You have heard of some from Union?

Answer. Yes, sir.

Question. What part of Union?

Answer. Union adjoins Laurens, all on one side; the nearest point twelve, and the farthest point sixteen miles distant.

Question. Have you heard of the Ku-Klux organization in Spartanburgh ?

Answer. The only thing I have heard with reference to the Ku-Klux organization in the State is what I have seen in the public prints, every now and then, that violence has been committed, alleged to have been by disguised men called Ku-Klux, sometimes in Spartanburgh, sometimes in Union, and in other points in the State.

Question. Have you no information upon which to form an opinion, whether that organization exists in Spartanburgh County?

Answer. No, sir, the only information I have at all is the fact I told you, that I have seen in the public prints occasionally an announcement that such a man was shot ; for instance, Dr. Winsmith, and other parties.

Question. That is absolutely all the information you have from Spartanburgh?
Answer. Yes, sir, absolutely.

Question. How as to Union?

Answer. The same as to Union and every other portion of the State.

Question. You are a practicing lawyer?

Question. Do you practice in that county and surrounding counties?

Answer. Yes, sir; I attend Spartanburgh court-house occasionally. I have an appointment now there for Wednesday morning. I attend Greenville also. I do not attend Union.

Question. Are you a member of any secret organization?

Answer. None but the Masons. I have been a Mason for years.

Question. Are you a member of the Council of Safety?

Answer. I never heard of it.

Question. You never heard of it?

Answer. I do not know that I have.

Question. Are you a member of the Pale Faces?

Answer. No, sir.

Question. Did you ever hear of them?

Answer. I think I have seen some mention in the public prints, probably, of them. Question. Are you a member of the White Brotherhood?

Answer. No, sir; I never heard of the White Brotherhood-I do not think I have; I may have seen it in the papers.

Question. Are you a member of the Constitutional Union Guards?

Answer. No, sir.

Question. Did you ever hear of them?

Answer. I do not know that I did. I may have seen it-just passed my eyes over it in seeing papers.

Question. Are you a member of the Invisible Circle?

Answer. No, sir.

Question. Did you ever hear of that?

Answer. I do not know that I did, except I may have seen it in the papers.

Question. Are you a member of the Knights of the White Camelia ?

Answer. No, sir; I never heard of that association in my life.

Mr. STEVENSON. I must congratulate you upon knowing less of these things than any other witness we have had before us.

Mr. VAN TRUMP. I think, Mr. Chairman, that the mere appearance and character of this witness should protect him from questions carrying such imputations upon the record.

The WITNESS. I knew that these questions were not in accordance with the principles of law. I have a right to refuse to answer, according to legal principles, on the ground that a man cannot be asked a question that will criminate himself; but I never heard of half of these societies. You are much better informed than I am.

By Mr. STEVENSON:

Question. Have you put your answers on that ground?

Answer. I am connected with no secret organization; I would not do it. This diffi

culty we had after election was an open fight between two parties. Some were killed in a riot. I have discountenanced and discouraged it; it is dishonorable to do these things; I did not think of it.

Question. You do not justify this proceeding?

Answer. No, sir. I have no sympathy for some white men that have been punished; I think they deserved it, but not in that way. I regret to see men taking the law into their own hands.

Question. You spoke of threats against whites by negroes. Did you ever hear of threats by whites against negroes?

Answer. No, sir. The people, although apprehensive of conflict, the white people, never had any apprehension as to the result. We have always known perfectly well that if a conflict took place, the negro would go under instantly.

Question. Why, then, so apprehensive?

Answer. Because we did not want to be forced to violence.

Question. On account of the negro?

Answer. We did not want violence, although I do feel much more sympathy for the negroes than for the white men who mislead them; but we did not want to have a fight. This thing of a man having pistols under his bed at night, expecting an attack— I would as lief live among the Comanches.

Question. Do you speak for the whole people?

Answer. I knew that if a conflict arose, it would involve the whole of us.

Question. You mean to express your own views?

Answer. Yes, sir, my own views.

Question. Do you think the white people of the county generally feel the same way? Answer. Those with whom I associated, and with whom I had influence, if I had any at all, I think were so.

Question. Did you say an effort was made on the part of influential citizens to induce those who had State arms to give them up?

Answer. Yes, sir. After this difficulty, Lieutenant Estes, a very gentlemanly man, came over in command of a company.

Question. How do you account for the fact that they have not been recovered? Answer. We published a card in the Herald, and got the sheriff to make a demand upon the people to bring them back, saying that we had assurance that Governor Scott would return them to the State armory. They declined to do it; I do not know why I heard laughing remarks occasionally that they had been taxed to pay for them, and that they had as much right to them as the governor, or something of the sort. I think the reason was, that they did not know how soon another conflict might arise, and they had no arms among the people. We had no arms at all; the body of the people ha no arms; and they did not know but what they might be needed some time in a con flict, and they held on to them.

Question. You are not aware of the fact that those arms are now held and used a arms of the Ku-Klux Klan ?

Answer. No, sir; and I do not believe it, either, though I do not know where there is a single gun.

Question. Yet you are very confident that the Ku-Klnx Klan have not them?

Answer. I think probably a good many of them are in Laurens, and I do not believ there are any Ku-Klux Klans there.

Question. Any in Union?

Answer. There were a good many Union men there that night, and they might have got some.

Question. Are you aware of the fact that the men who made that raid on the Union jail came from Laurens, some of them, and had those very guns?

Answer. No, sir, I am not aware of the fact. All I know of that is from the Colum

bia papers. I never talked with a man who knew about it.

Question. You say a thousand guns were brought to that county?

Answer. I do not say positively. I put it in bounds, I believe, at one thousand two hundred.

Question. About two hundred were recovered, you think?

Answer. Yes, sir, two hundred or two hundred and fifty.

Question. All the rest are out, then?

Answer. Yes, sir.

Question. Eight to ten hundred are out?

Answer. Yes, sir.

By Mr. VAN TRUMP:

Question. Were the Clinton guns taken, too?

Answer. Yes, sir, I think so; I embraced those in the thousand in the county. I think they were taken, too.

By Mr. STEVENSON:

Question. According to your view, then, of the state of feeling there, you think there was no organization, and none was necessary to produce the result you speak of?

Answer. Yes, sir; I think the thing was anticipated by both sides. I do not believe the negroes intended to kick up a row that day. I have no more idea that the constables, or Crews, or the negroes anticipated a row than we have of one here to-day. Question. That is very clear on the part of the negroes, for the great majority had left the day before?

Answer. Yes, sir.

Question. Did they congregate there that day in large numbers?

Answer. Yes, sir, pretty large; but they had no idea of a fight.

Question. How many negroes did you see in town the day of the riot?

Answer. It is a guess; I suppose I saw a hundred.

Question. Is that more than resided there?

Answer. Yes, sir; a good many were there from the country that day, but I have no idea that they came there for a collision. It was court week, and the result of the election was not known. Certainly those two things brought a good many of them; I am positive of that.

Question. I understand you that such was and is the state of feeling that, without any organization, such a thing as that could happen, and may happen again, at any time during the approaching election?

Answer. O, not now.

Question. You said you were over a volcano ?

Answer. Not now. The negroes are quiet now; I see no indications of hostility on either side; but it may be, if we have an election, two parties may spring up again, and the feeling may spring up again. We are quiet now, and have been since that time. The negroes are working better than they have done since the war. Question. The election was practically nullified?

Answer. No, sir; I don't know how it was. The nominees of that party were all declared elected, but only one got his seat. Three were members of the legislature. Question. But the county officers?

Answer. They did not qualify. They were elected; two of them were negroes, and incompetent; they became satisfied of that. There were no threats to them; they did not refuse because they were threatened, but that school commissioner is an evidence of the state of feeling.

Question. It was hardly necessary to tell them so, after two of them had been killed? Answer. No, sir; no commissioners were killed; the probate judge and one member of the legislature were killed.

Question. I see by the census that the native white population is nine thousand eight hundred and thirty-two, and the native colored population twelve thousand six hundred and twenty-six in that county.

Answer. I told Senator Scott just now I supposed it was about twenty thousand. I was guessing.

Question. That was a majority of nearly three thousand colored?

Answer. Yes, sir.

Question. The foreign population is not material?

Answer. I think, possibly, that very fact intensified these things more in Laurens County than in any other. There was a strong contest. If the whites had been in hopeless minority, we would have had no apprehension.

Question. Did you not consider that a hopeless minority, two hundred? Answer. Two hundred I did not consider were hopeless-two hundred votes. Question. You say the lines were drawn on color, and a few whites went with the blacks?

Answer. Yes, sir; but this movement had been inaugurated with Carpenter, to see if there could not be a fusion, and we went so far as to nominate a negro on the ticket, to make a diversion of the negro vote to have quiet. There was one circumstance, I should state, to show still further the aggravation of the whites. You have seen the election law of South Carolina-transparent from beginning to end in its character. They appointed members of their own party, the white people did, to have a fair election or count; appointed a committee to wait on the canvassers, Joe Crews and Young Owens, to have a joint committee from both parties to attend at the boxes and register the voters, so as to prevent double voting at the different boxes two or three times. That proposition was spurned with contempt; they would not allow a white committee near the boxes.

Question. For what position did you nominate the negro nominee?

Answer. For the legislature.

Question What was his name?

Answer. I declare I do not remember.

Question. What was he before the war?

Answer. A slave, farming. It was against my counsel. I would not attend the meet ing; I did not think it was right.

Question. Is he educated?

Answer. No, sir, au ignorant man. I did not believe in it.

Question. Is he a man of particular mark?