Answer. I understood it went off in the breast of a man named Baird. He did not shoot it; it was in his jacket somewhere.

Question. Was he a white man?

Answer. Yes, sir. There was no allegation, I ever heard, from either side, that that pistol was fired at anybody, or had anything to do with the fight.

Question. Up to that time the fight was individual between Johnson and the constable?

Answer. Yes, sir, entirely.

Question. After that time you say the allegation was that some negroes went to Crews's armory?

Answer. Yes, sir.

Question. And that then the white people followed them?

Answer. This constable retreated in this difficulty toward this armory, and ran into it, and the door was shut, and when the door was shut-just as the door was shut-a volley came from the window above and the room below, so it was stated, and the people then rushed on that building.

Question. How far was the point (where this contest between Johnson and the constable began) from the armory?

Answer. About thirty, forty, or fifty yards.

Question. The crowd ran toward that building?

Answer. They did not run toward it until the firing took place from the building Question. You used the word that the white people attacked it with pistols ?

Answer. After the firing they did.

Question. Do you know whether the firing from it was directed at the crowd miscellaneously, or at the man who was pursuing this constable ?

Question. The negroes gave back, you say?

Answer. I understood the negroes, after the white people got in, retreated from the building.

Question. Were not the arms in the building taken possession of by the white people? Answer. Yes, sir.

Question. How many of them?

Answer. I don't know-I am speculating-I suppose five or six hundred in all. Question. According to your information, were there more than twenty or thirty negroes there, who had arms, in that building

Answer. I don't know; I don't suppose there were more than that.

Question. At that point the negroes themselves retreated and ran away altogether? Answer. They ran out of the back door, it was said, firing, and the whites fired too. They retreated; they found themselves overpowered; and the moment they retreated the thing stopped.

Question. Was there not an unusual number of white people in the town on that day?
Answer. No, sir; I suppose not more than a hundred.

Question. Were there any people there from the adjoining towns at that time?
Answer. No, sir.

Question. The negroes then felt so much alarmed that most of them left the town immediately?

Answer. Yes, sir.

Question. The only white persons who were identified with the republican party also left the town?

Question. So that the town and the arms were left in the possession of the whites? Answer. Yes, sir.

Question. Then, on that same day, did not a large number of whites come from the adjoining countios to Laurens?

Answer. A large number of people came during the night. They commenced coming in from the nearer points before night, and during after night a large number of citizens collected there, some from the adjoining counties. I suppose there must have been at least a thousand persons there before morning.

Question. Were there not persons there from Spartanburgh?

Answer. I think there were some from Spartanburgh.

Question. And Union?

Answer. I think some from Union.

Question. And some from Newberry?

Answer. I do not know about Newberry.

Question. Twenty-five hundred you say were there; that is more than the whole white voting population of your county?

Answer. Yes, sir.

Question. You have given nineteen hundred as the number of white votes in Laurens County?

Answer. Yes, sir.

Question. You think by midnight there were twenty-five hundred ?

Answer. Yes, sir; two thousand to twenty-five hundred.

Question. Would it be possible that that number of persons could have come from upon

the day at Laure the news of that occurrence going out, from the time it occurred ip

the day at Laurens, which was about noon, you say, was it not?

Answer. Yes, sir; the difficulty took place about noon.

Question. And in twelve hours there were twenty-five hundred people in town?
Answer. Yes, sir.

Question. Would it be possible that they could have been gathered, by the news simply spreading throngh the country, by 12 o'clock.

Answer. It did occur.

Question. Would it be possible that it could occur without preconcert?

Answer. I am just as sure as I am looking you in the eye that there was no preconcert--none in the world. The white people had no more anticipation of the difficulty that day than I have now.

Question. Would it be possible, by couriers or otherwise, to send word to so many people in Laurens County as to have six hundred more than the whole voting population there within twelve hours?

Answer. I say it would be possible, because it did occur. I do not want to argue it, but I am satisfied that there was no preconcert, because I think if there would have been preconcert, I positively would have known; not that they would have advised with me, supposing I would have participated in it, but I do not think anything would have originated, of that sort, without almost everybody knowing it.

Question. How far off was Powell found?

Answer. About four miles.

Question. Was there any knowledge of how he was killed?

Answer. No, sir; nobody ever acknowledged it. He was found dead, shot in several places.

Question. The other man, Riley, was killed also?

Question. Was there any evidence that Powell had left there with a gun?

Answer. I never heard anybody say that he saw him leave, but that constabulary place was where Powell staid, and there were arms.

Question. Did you hear young Crews's account of how he and Powell traveled together and separated?

Answer. I never had any conversation with young Crews himself. I have heard a floating account or rumors of what Crews said.

Question. Did you understand that Crews was taken and stood up to be shot at?
Answer. I have heard he said so.

Question. And that Powell was found very close to where they separated?
Answer. I have heard that that was his statement.

Question. If it was simply a contest growing out of the private quarrel between these two men, how do you account for the fact that Powell was killed, and Riley, who you say was a leading republican politician, and also Perrin, a candidate for the legislature? How was it that the vengeance was visited all on one side?

Answer. What induced these men to kill Powell and Riley and Wade Perrin, and the circumstances under which they were killed, I do not know. I have conjectured this, however that they met with parties who were coming to the village that night and were known to be men who had stirred up the bad blood during the whole canvass. They were prominent in it.

Question. Whatever may have been the origin of that quarrel, did it not assume the form of a hunt after republicans when these men got out?

Answer. No, sir; these men were not despised because they were republicans. The public indignation would have been just as strong if they had been democrats, had they conducted themselves in the manner in which they had. It was not a fight, as I told you before, in the county, in the beginning, between democracy and republicanism. The two parties assumed that shape, but it was more a contest for integrity or good government, good officers for the county and State. The people there have no confi

dence in these men, and you would not, if you were here and knew the history of the men who had assumed the republican garb in South Carolina. They are a disgrace to the party, and I think all true republicans, if they were fully informed, or knew as much as we do, would say so. They have assumed that garb; they have taken it and told the negroes the republicans sct them free. They have gone over to that party to get influence over the negro.

Question. That is the motive attributed here to every man who joins that party? Answer. No, sir.

Question. Is there any exception?

Answer. I do not know that there is in South Carolina. In all probability, Governor Scott was a republican at the North like the republicans at the North, and, perhaps, Mr. Chamberlain. They did not join that other party down here, but were republicans before. I have no doubt they came here knowing that, being republicans, they could have influence with the voting population and get office in that way. That was their purpose in coming here. But we believe that most of those who have gone over to the republican party in South Carolina have gone over from the teeth out for the purpose of getting office.

Question. The consequence is a feeling against both classes, those who come as republicans to have influence over the negroes and native South Carolina republicans from the teeth. You have a very bitter feeling against all?

Answer. Yes, sir; not because they are republicans, but because they make use of republicanism to elevate ignorance. The cause of our hostility is because they use that for their personal aggrandizement.

Question. That being the case, did not this difficulty at Laurens assume the form of an actual hunt after the negroes themselves and those who acted with them politicallycall them by what name you may? Did they not treat with violence every one they met that day at all obnoxious to the charge of being a republican ?

Answer. The people did not pursue anybody. The fight in the town stopped the moment the negroes left, and it was quiet. These men killed on the highway were killed, no doubt, because they were prominent in that election.

Question. The men who were killed in the town were negroes also?

Answer. Yes, sir; they were killed right at this armory.

Question. There were two of them-what were their names?

Answer. One was named Bill Griffin; the other, Peter Fleming.

Question. Had they any prominence?

Answer. No, sir; none at all. They were there at the armory and ran out.

Question. One negro was wounded-what was his name?

Answer. He formerly belonged to Crews. I have forgotten his name.

Question. One white man was wounded in the town, you say who was he?

Answer. He was a countryman-I do not remember his name. He lived in the lower part of the district.

Question. Was he taking part in the contest?

Answer. Yes, sir; he was about there.

Question. You say, also, one child?

Answer. Yes, sir; one child in some house was hit with a spent ball-a child of Dr. · Black.

Question. Injured?

Answer. No, sir.

Question. Two negroes were killed and one wounded in the town?

Answer. Two were wounded, I think.

Question. And then in the country, Powell, a white man, and Riley and Perrin were killed?

Answer. Yes, sir; and two others in another part of the district.

Answer. Yes, sir; six negroes and one white man.

Question. Making altogether, from your information, seven who were killed as the result of that riot?

Question. Five of them the day after the riot occurred, outside of the town?

Question. Do you know their names, or whether they had prominence?

Answer. Yes, sir.

Question. The two others were also negroes?

Answer. Yes, sir.

Answer. Yes, sir; they had been pretty prominent. One of them was a boy named Young Fuller, who formerly belonged to my brother. The other was Abe Simmons. They had been somewhat prominent, I understood, in language, in threats. Such threats as these were frequently heard: that the whites had no arms and the negroes' day had come; and some said they didn't belong to the militia, but would be in at the fight; all this sort of things were heard, which did not produce any effect so far as any action was concerned, but they were like straws showing the way the wind blew, and produced an apprehension that the negroes were preparing in mind for a conflict.

Question. Now, take the negroes as they stood in that county, with, as I understood it, only two white men to lead them-Crews and Powell.

Answer. They had, also, all the constabulary force.

Question. You say they were strangers?

Answer. So was Powell.

Question. He was one of the constables?

Answer. Yes, sir.

Question. Had Powell behaved pretty well?

Answer. He went about with Crews to their musters and electioneered in that way. Question. Was that all he did that was offensive?

Answer. I never heard of his talking or insulting anybody.

Question. What was his demeanor as a citizen?

Answer. The people had nothing to do with him or he with them; he staid with Crews and the negroes. They rode about. They were there on horseback armed, and Crews would issue a warrant as trial justice and they made the arrest.

Question. With the disposition the negroes have manifested, and only those two men to lead them, were you seriously under apprehension that the negroes intended war upon the whites there?

Answer. There was a good deal of apprehension that such would be the result after they got their arms. The negroes were under the impression that the whites had no arms, and we knew the character of these harangues that had been made to them. Question. But the election had passed off and the arms had really not been distribued? Answer. They were down there every Saturday, and brought back to the armory. Question. They were there at that time?

Answer. Yes, sir.

Question. So that as far as using them against the white people was concerned, if there had been an intention to do that, the white people then had the force to prevent them from being taken out, as the result showed?

Answer. It so happened that the whites did succeed in getting them that day.
Question. Have there been any more than two hundred arms returned?

Answer. I think not more than that.

Question. Are not the balance in the hands of the white people?

Answer. They must be; they have not been returned. I do not know where they

are.

Question. You have been asked the character of this man Crews. I have some curiosity to hear something about him myself. We have heard a great deal about him. You say he was a negro-trader?

Answer. Yes, sir; he came originally from North Carolina. When a boy he rode the mail between Greenville and Rutherford. Afterward he was clerk in a store in Greenville Court-House. He finally came to Laurens when well grown, and embarked in business about the time I was admitted. He is about my age. He commenced as a clerk. Finally he married within a few miles of our town, and got into considerable mercantile business.

Question. Married respectably?

Answer. Yes, sir; he married the daughter of a man named Dial, who had two or three hundred acres of land and fourteen slaves. Crews married his daughter and was merchandising until 1856, when he failed, and assigned, with very large debts due in New York and Philadelphia and Baltimore, and there were some accounts from Canada. He then commenced business in the name of his father-in-law, Lewis Dial, Joe Crews, agent, and carried on business awhile as a merchant still. He combined with that negro-trading; he bought all over the country in the name of Lewis Dial; he had carte blanche to sign his name, "Lewis Dial, per Joseph Crews." He carried on that up to the close of the war.

Question. Was he still considered a respectable man?

Answer. No, sir; not respectable. I do not say that people denounced him as a villain, but they had little confidence in his pecuniary integrity. Crews is a curious combination. He seems a good-hearted fellow, very accommodating, although people had not much confidence in his integrity, high integrity; yet he was kind to everybody and accommodating, and would do anything for anybody nearly that wanted anything done; he would send off and do it.

Question. Was he under the ban of society there at the commencement of the war? Answer. Yes, sir; he did not associate except in business matters. Then, during the war, he kept out of the army. I think he was over age or something of the sort, or alleged to be. He was about being conscripted, when he made application before the enrolling officer, and had some proof about his age. It was generally believed that the proof was false. Anyhow he kept out of the war. He got some contract on a railroad and kept out of the. war; but it was not understood that he was opposed in principle to the thing.

Question. That is, he was in heart with the fight, but did not want to go into it himself?

Answer. Yes, sir. He did not want to go in, but he was a secessionist.
Question. But he had no stomach for a fight?

Answer. None for a fight.

Question. After the war he turned up?

Answer. Yes, sir. The first I heard of him a convention was called and Joe Crews was going with the negroes. It was understood that he was about with the negroes talking a good deal, and finally it was announced that he would be a candidate for the convention. He has been with them ever since. It is understood that he has been perfectly unscrupulous as a legislator. He has very little ability, but some shrewdness. Question. Did you ever understand that in his negro-trading he was connected with Forrest?

Answer. I think there was a man named Forrest-I do not know whether it was General Forrest-that he carried negroes to in the west, in Louisiana-New Orleans. Question. You made the remark they had all left and none had returned. Did that apply to anybody else than Crews?

Answer. It applied to the constabulary, and Crews and Perrin.

Question. How many members of the legislature were there from that county?

Answer. Four-three of whom were negroes. They were Wade Perrin, Joe Crews, McDaniels, and Tom Johnson.

Question. What has become of McDaniels?

Answer. He went away soon after the row to the legislature, staid there during the legislature, and after the legislature adjourned he came back to the county and staid awhile, and I understood he got somewhat alarmed, but I do not know any reason for it, and went back to Columbia. I think he is now back again in the county. The last time I was in Columbia, at the appeal court, he called to see me, and asked if it would be safe for him to go home. He wanted to go home. I advised him to go. I said that I had never heard anything against him, no intimation of any injury to him; and I think he did go.

Question. What has become of Johnson?

Answer. He went back immediately after the legislature adjourned, and nobody has disturbed him. I have heard of his selling his cotton at Clinton recently.

Question. Is he farmer?

Answer. Yes, sir; working a plantation on shares.

Question. Is Senator Owens in the county?

Answer. No, sir; he has not come back. I have understood that he has been back once or twice, but I do not think he shows himself publicly.

Question. How about your county officers?

Answer. Well, Volney Powell, as I said before, was elected probate judge, or claimed it, but we do not know who was elected; the boxes in that row some way or other disappeared. We understood they were in Crews's house, and they were taken to Columbia. If they were ever counted, we never heard of it. The law required them to be counted at Laurens. They were declared elected, though, by the State canvassers, without any count that we ever heard of. Volney Powell was elected or claimed to be elected probate judge. He was killed. The other probate judge, an old officer, is holding over.

Question. What is his politics?

Answer. Democratic. The county commissioners belong to the democrats also. In that election, however, three radicals were elected-two negroes and a white man, a Yankee domesticated there a short time-but the negroes did not qualify, nor did the white man, and the old county commissioners are holding over. As to the school commissioners, a negro named Pratt Suber, as ignorant as any corn-field negro, holds an office in the village as school commissioner; you know all about the office. Question. Is he in office there now?

Answer. He is-quiet and undisturbed-and has been so ever since the election. Question. Have you no idea that the refusal of these men to return was influenced by a well-founded apprehension of violence after this violence on the day of the election?

Answer. I believe they remain away because they are apprehensive of personal injury. I think they feel conscious of deserving punishment. They know what they have done to the peace and good order and quiet of that country.

Question. Is there such a feeling in that county against the negro politically, not as a negro, as would lead to resistance against any result in that county brought about or maintained exclusively by a negro majority?

Answer. No, sir; I do not think it goes to the extent that would lead to anything like resistance, as this case of this school commissioner shows. There is no sort of disturbance toward him, although the people feel perfectly conscious that he knows no more about it than that inkstand. He has control of the whole educational interests of the community and the funds arising from it. I have no idea that there would be any sort of physical resistance to an election of the negroes to any office there. I think it would be idle and foolish for the people to undertake any such thing. We