Imágenes de páginas
PDF
EPUB

3

Mr. McDONALD-Mr. Chairman

Mr. McDONALD I do not understand what

the gentleman wishes. If he wishes to adjourn until seven o'clock I will yield the floor.

Mr. AXTELL-I was going to move, if the gentleman will yield, that the committee rise and report, for the purpose of allowing me to make a motion in the Convention that hereafter, in the discussion of this article on salt, each speaker be limited to four hours. [Laughter.]

again.

The question was put on the motion of Mr. Kinney, and it was declared carried. Whereupon the committee rose, and the PRESIDENT resumed the chair in Convention. Mr. BEADLE, from the Committee of the Whole, reported that the committee had had under consideration the report of the Committee on the Salt Springs of the State, had made some progress therein, but not having gone through therewith, had instructed their chairman to report that fact to the Convention, and ask leave to sit again.

The question was put on granting leave, and it was declared carried.

Nebraska, and Illinois-all over this country- far, and hope not to be under the necessity of there is an abundance of salt water, and there is trespassing upon them again during this discusto-day, within the limits of the United States of sion. America, based upon the past use of salt, ac. cording to the population, more of salt water and Mr. AXTELL-Will the gentleman from Onsalt deposits than would satisfy for ages a popu-tario [Mr. McDonald] yield for a moment? lation of more than one hundred times the population that we have got to-day. It is one of the most singular and strange coincidences that as population increases in this country so increases the use of salt. Each decade, give me the number of inhabitants, and I will tell you the number of bushels of salt used. It is about a bushel to every man, woman and child in the country. It has been that ever since statistics in that regard have been taken, when the census of the people Mr. McDONALD-I understand then that the of the country has been taken; and based upon gentleman wishes to move that the committee that position, there is now that can be reached, rise and report, and meet again at seven o'clock. and reached without difficulty with enterprise Mr. KINNEY-I move that this committee and capital, enough of supply in these United do now rise, report progress, and ask leave to sit States of America to supply the whole habitable globe for all time to come. Under these circumstances, surrounded with all these facts which I have undertaken to give in these remarks which I have made, is it the policy of the people of this State, represented in this Constitutional Convention, to put in the Constitution an immutable law of price, which the State shall charge for the use of that water in that location? How are we situated? If the people of the United States in Congress take off the tariff upon foreign salt, as they unquestionably will do if a certain party in this country get possession of the reins of the government, as sure as they get that possession, and they may before that time take off that duty -where are we? Does any man contend for a single moment, in the light of all that I have said in regard to this matter, that we could stand up at all against that operation, that we could begin to carry out to the extent that we do now, the business of manufacturing salt in our location? And with the light of the fact that Canada is gone to us, and gone forever, so far as regards this matter of Goderich, with the fact, also, that I can show clearly and conclusively, to any man who will sit down and figure with me-I will not undertake to make the figures here-that they can go to Chicago and can compete successfully with us, and drive us out from that market, I trust this Convention will forbear to lay a Mr. McDONALD-After the eloquent defense heavier burden than in the past upon the of the interest represented by the gentleman from salt springs at Onondaga. To-day-and I speak Onondaga [Mr. Alvord], I have thought it worth this without any hesitation, and I speak it under- while, even in the hearing of so few as are here standingly, and know what I say, and under the present, to say something in behalf of the State solemnity of my oath-if you put this duty of of New York. The question under discussion three cents a bushel upon the salt of Onondaga, the gentleman from Onondaga has forgotten, as if I can I will sell what little property I have it seems, and he has made himself-probably there and go to Goderich. I have very serious from inclination; it may be a natural inclination doubts whether I would not make more money in a special advocate of a certain corporation in so doing than even with one cent duty. I tell this State, and has thus failed to meet the quesyou that the scepter of greatness in the productions that are really before this Convention. This tion of salt which we have wielded in the past is to depart from us, and we have got to look to it with the close and careful economy that has given us every dollar of the money we have made in the past, and still more closely, in order to be enabled to continue the manufacture of salt in the locality where we reside. I thank the committee for their indulgence in listening to me this

Mr. KINNEY-I move that the Convention take a recess until seven o'clock.

The question was put on the motion of Mr.
Kinney, and it was declared carried.
So the Convention took a recess until seven
o'clock P. M.

EVENING SESSION.

The Convention re-assembled at seven o'clock, P. M., and again resolved itself into Committee of the Whole on the report of the Com mittee on the Salt Springs of the State, Mr. BEADLE, of Chemung, in the Chair.

Convention, as is well known to all, represents or ought to represent the State of New York. The State of New York is the owner of certain land, which, fortunately or unfortunately for the people of Syracuse, lies near by that city. On that there are certain salt springs, and we are here, selected as the trustees of the owners of those salt springs, to see to it that we take such constitutional action.

as should be taken by the owners thereof to fully that there is a law by which whatever wator is protect their interests therein, including those of furnished shall be distributed in a certain way; the people of Syracuse and Onondaga county and, beyond that, I find nothing obligatory. We with those of the rest of the State; not that we then stand with the State as owner in fee of this may protect the interests of any locality against property thus leased to the salt manufacturers. the interests of the rest of the State. As to the Let us for a moment next inquire what is the nafacts out of which this discussion arises, it may ture of the property belonging to the lessees. be remarked in passing that, either fortunately We find these three hundred and sixteen salt or unfortunately for the State under the present blocks, and we find a certain number of coarse circumstances, we are compelled to go for our salt manufactories. It is admitted as a matter of facts to the officers of this corporation, of whose fact that, during the last year, only two hundred interests the gentleman from Onondaga is the and fourteen of these blocks were operated from eloquent advocate. That corporation has the en- one hundred and fifty days down to less than tire control of this property, its officers know all twenty-four days, averaging to each block one about it, and it is impossible to find any other hundred days, and that one hundred and two of person who has like knowledge. Hence, if the these were not operated, were never opened, facts they themselves produce show that the in- were in fact, for all useful purposes, dead propterests of that corporation are opposed to the inter-erty. We find by the testimony that the entire ests of the State of New York, they at least cannot quantity of fine salt manufactured is about five dispute about the facts. If from these facts thus million bushels, while the actual capacity of the obtained from them, we deduce reasonable and present erections to manufacture is fifteen million rational conclusions, they should not complain. bushels, and, per consequence, only one-third of I will not detain this committee by mentioning the property is needed, and two-thirds is dead all the facts, only a very few of them, on which property. With regard to the coarse salt manuI shall base what I have to say; and first the facturers, I understand, with the quantity of State of New York is the absolute owner of water furnished, they manufacture all they can. these reservations and springs, and the brine or If they had more water in the right season, they water taken. Whatever title these other parties could make more. Now, what of the salt wells? have as against the State, has been acquired We find that the entire seven million bushels is from the State. I now refer to such portions of manufactured from the brine of fifteen wells, and land where the title remains in the State. The that these wells only would cost about $3,000 honorable gentleman [Mr. Alvord] says he has a each to dig them; that the strength of the water title which is a title in fee; yet he admits at the differs from 75 degrees salinometer to 52 degrees same time, that that is different from the usual salinometer; that the capacity of these springs to title. He knows that the greater part of the produce water is exhaustless. These are the facts manufacturers, both of the coarse and fine salt upon which I shall base my argument. It will be have not the fee of the land that they have necessary to say only a few words with regard to simply a lease in it be fine salt, and a permit if it the organization of this Onondaga salt company. be coarse salt that they manufacture. Let us For the purposes intended, the Onondaga salt take the case of a manufacturer of fine salt. Of company is the best formed and the best the three hundred and sixteen blocks, if I re- managed institution that I ever saw, and that its member right, a little more than two hundred originators and present business managers fully are on land owned by the State, and the rest are understand their business and interests. If you owned by private individuals, built on private examine for a moment how it was organized, and land. how it is operated, you will understand the seMr. ALVORD-Do I understand the gentle-cret of this whole matter. At first they were man to say that the State owned the salt blocks? the owners of the three hundred and sixteen salt Mr. McDONALD - No, sir. I say that the blocks, capable of manufacturing three times as State owned the land on which the salt blocks much as they could sell. What was the conseare built-that it has the fee of the land and that quence? The consequence was that the compeis all I say about it. I speak of the title which tition was very strong. Such is the usual and these parties have to the land upon which they natural result when you have more property inhave seen fit to build the salt blocks. One uni- vested than you can use. They were, as the form condition in all leases under which they hold commmon saying is, cutting their own throats. title is that he, the lessee, "will conform in every The consequence was, the whole thing failed. respect to the provisions of any and all the acts Thus situated, what did these salt manufacturers of the Legislature now in force, in relation to the do? Let us see how nicely they arranged all. salt springs and the manufacture of salt in the They first assessed five per cent upon the valuacounty of Onondaga, or any laws which may tion of this property, as the capital stock of a corbe hereinafter enacted in relation thereto." This poration, and in order to have it equitable, they proves that the people of the State of New appoint a committee to value all this property, York, as owners and lessors, have the and subscribe the five per cent upon this valusentire control of that property. Now, I would tion. If any one will tell me, after that corpora ask the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord]. tion is formed, what is the difference, in interest, if he can, to point out to me what obligation between the corporation and the corporate indithere is, either expressed or implied, by which viduals as owners of this salt property, I would the State of New York is bound to furnish any like to see it. There is five per cent paid by particular quantity of brine to these various each person, which amounts to $160,000, and blocks or to coarse salt manufacturers? I find they call that corporate property and themselves

a corporation; but the interests of each corpor- now come to the questions that are to be disator as to each other is in the same proportion as cussed. The first question that comes before this his interest in the property for manufacturing. committee is this: The present Constitution proThese owners thus make up the corporation with vides that these salt springs shall not be sold. their interests identical in the corporation as les- The majority of the committee, I believe every see, and the property of which they are lessees. one of them but myself, recommend that that reThus constituted they turn round, and in their striction shall be taken out of the Constitution, corporate capacity agree to hire of themselves and that it shall be left to the Legislature to sell this property, and to pay themselves twelve and a them on consultation with the commissioners of half per cent annually over and above all taxatiou, the canal fund. In this I do not concur. Hence all repairs, all dilapidations, all loss by fire and the first question is, ought we to strike out of all other losses, in any manner whatsoever. They the Constitution the provision which prohibits the are hiring all these. But, remember, they only sale of these springs? To this proposition, I bind themselves to pay that, provided the net answer in the negative. Let us examine the profits of the company will pay it. There is the arguments in favor of striking it out. The first secret of the whole thing. If the net profits are argument advanced is that the revenue we now sufficient to pay this, very good. If they are get from the springs is not as much as we should not, they are not bound. So it is no more than get from the interest of the money if the propthis: A number of men agree to lay a tax upon erty were sold. This I admit to be the fact unthemselves of five per cent each, upon their der the present arrangement; but I submit this property, to see if that will not help business is not why the springs should be retained. In along; yet, they are all the while renting to them- all discussions on salt this increase of revenue selves. Instead of one party renting to another, has always been put forward and kept in the both of them are on the same side of the bargain. foreground as a blind, to keep attention from the That is the arrangement, and they will not deny real object, as in fishing, the bright light in the it. Thus they have that fixed. They have the front part of the canoe is to attract the attention corporation, and in the corporation they have so that the fisherman can the more easily spear agreed to pay twelve and a half per cent over the fish thus attracted. In this case they wish and above all possible losses, provided the annual men to look at, and get men to look at, this false net profits will pay it. And just here the maic light of increased revenue of from fourteen to difference arises. When they calculate what they twenty-eight thousand dollars, holding it out to call the cost of the article, they calculate the them with one hand, while with the other hand whole cost of it to them in their corporate ca- they take a hundred and fifty thousand dollars pacity, and as a part of that cost this twelve and out of our pockets in the shape of an increased a half per cent rent upon property, employed or price of salt. Such is the operation heretofore idle. There is the whole explanation of this successful, and this again has been the whole matter. It has been very successful so far, to argument of the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. make the people of the State of New York sup- Alvord]. He has argued that you shall try and port a losing business and give them a higher increase this revenue for the State. He has also profit than any other business in the State, and argued if you cut it off you will cut off your revethat was the object and has been the result of nue, and that is his entire argument. But he has the Onondaga salt company. I will now try and not referred to or hinted at the fact that for the show exactly that that is done. Thus these in- past year this organization charged the people of dividuals have bound themselves in this corpora- this State for the same quantity produced a huntion to thus continue to do until 1870. It may dred and fifty thousand dollars more than they be asked how they get at this question of dilapi- do the average of all other people. It is for this dation, repairs, etc. Let us see. The corpora- reason I say that this question of revenue is of tion says to the owner of a salt block: We want minor importance. It is simply talking about putyou to make some salt for us, and for this pur- ting into the pockets of the State a small amount, pose they lease it back to the owner and let him while in fact this corporation is taking out of the make the salt for them, and in the lease bind the pockets of the people of the State a very much owner to make the repairs, etc. Thus here stands larger amount. The real reason, as I claim, why the man with his agreement with the corporation we should retain that property is that from the to make the repairs, and there is his agreement circumstances of the case the manufacture and with the corporation that he shall do it. Hence, if sale of salt at Syracuse must be a monopoly as he undertakes to sue the corporation under that regards about two-thirds of this State. This agreement, the corporation can sue him upon his monopoly arises simply from the fact that salt like agreement. The man has no interest in it, is a bulky, heavy article, and hence costs largely and the corporation has no interest in it. Hence to transport it, and also from the other fact that the owner can keep it in repair or not as he in this locality it can be manufactured cheaper, pleases. Thus the property stands there under other things being equal, than in any other local. these two leases, and thus they keep up a manu- ity which has yet been discovered, unless it may facture that pays twelve and a half per cent upon be this new discovery that has never been heard property that would not otherwise pay three. of before in Goderich. I do not know how that is, These are the facts, and upon these facts this but I submit that water can be pumped cheaper whole question must rest and be decided. I do when it comes right up to the top of the ground, not believe the gentlemen will deny that these as it does at Onondaga after the well is dug, than are the facts. Let us now turn our attention to where you must pump it up eleven hundred feet. the practical operations of this corporation. Wel I admit, with the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr

Alvord], that the only value of salt water is the fact of its favorable location. That is the only element of value. Salt water in itself, if it had not a certain peculiar situation, would be worth very little. Let us see what is its value. under this theory, according to the present tariff. It would be this: For seven million bushels they pay fifteen thousand dollars, over and above expenses. That is about one-fifth of a cent to a bushel, so that the price of salt water, when you calculate forty gallons to the bushel, seven million bushels, paying fifteen thousand dollars, amounts to little or nothing per gallonabout one-two hundredths of a cent. That is all the price now paid for the salt water where it is, location and all. The gentleman says you should not charge two cents or any thing more. Suppose that you should add one cent a bushel; you put on five cents a barrel upon salt. It takes forty gallons for a bushel, five times forty making two hundred, so that for two hundred gallons of water you add or charge five cents. Hence, with this addition it would only be three-one hundredths of a cent per gallon for salt water, so that, as the gentleman truly stated, the only possible value there is in salt water is in the location. Now, let us see why this location is valuable. It is because the water there is perfectly pure, or nearly so; and for the further reason and fact, which will not be denied, that at this point salt can be manufactured cheaper than at any place ever discovered, other things being equal; by which I mean fuel being at the same price. Now, how far can you transport a barrel of salt for five cents. That involves the whole question of value. We propose to charge five cents more upon the value of the water. How far can salt be transported for five cents? Not very far. And that is the only reason why the Onondaga salt company charge the people of the State so much more in order to get salt to any portion of two-thirds of the State around these springs. Unless obtained from this company it must be transported there, either from Saginaw or Goderich or some other place of manufacture. But the cost of that transportation would be very much more, I think, three or four times as much as the State charges, which thus makes the value on account of location only, at our salt springs; and thus the State charges, for that location only, one-third or one-fourth of its true value, on account of location only. This is on the supposition that the water costs nothing and can be as easily and cheaply obtained at such other place of manufacture as at Syracuse, which as we have shown, is not the fact.

Mr. ALVORD-The transportation of what? Mr. McDONALD-The transportation of the salt. If you get salt water furnished at your hand at either Goderich or Saginaw for nothing, you could not get the salt beyond Buffalo for the price you would pay for salt water furnished at your manufactory at Syracuse.

Mr. ALVORD-The price you pay for the salt?

Mr. McDONALD-The price you pay for the water furnished. Now, what would be the effect of a sale? When I come to speak with regard to the question of increased duty I shall try and show that the manufacturers, with the proposed increase of duty, can still sell salt much cheaper, at a large profit. Of this I shall speak more particularly hereafter. Let us now consider the effect of a sale of these springs. If I show that this monopoly is now taking from the people $150,000 more than it should, we simply give it the exclusive and established right to do it. We cannot in any way make salt lighter, nor can we make it so that it can be carried from any place where it is manufactured for nothing, or any thing like what we sell the water to them for at Syracuse; so that we virtually crystalize and forever fix the very difficulty under which we are now laboring. We put the people of the State where they can have no hope nor help for themselves. Now, they can help themselves if they wish to. Before I get through I shall try to explain how. They are bound by certain bands, and the gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord] knows too well how these bands are woven. If, then, under the present state of affairs, the State own and have the right to control this matter, and this corporation by its arrangement is enabled to do as I have stated, should we put it in their power to continue thus to do without any possible restraint? But, suppose we were to sell; have you any doubt who would buy this property? Hore stands the corporation with a million of dollars surplus; they own every thing; they control every thing. Does any other person stand any equal chance of purchasing under such circumstances? They will buy them as a matter of course, and the consequences I have shown will follow. I understand the reason why the people of Syracuse are not in favor of selling these springs is because they are not willing to trust these things in the hands of any monopoly at all. I submit, if they are afraid to do that the people of the State should also be afraid. Admitting, then, the salt springs are not to be sold, the second question is, how will you obviate the present difficulties? How shall we prevent the wrong we are now suffering? I submit we need two or three restrictions. First, the conMr. McDONALD-I undertake to say this: if trol of these salt springs should be taken away we charge only one cent more per bushel, it will from the Legislature, and should be put under be five cents more per barrel, ten cents per barrel the control of an independent board-the comin all, which is all the State is getting out of the missioners of the canal fund-which is the only salt water, and that including the cost of pump-board that our Constitution provides for. But it ing and bringing it right into your place of manufacture, and now I say if you could get the salt water thus furnished for nothing at Goderich, you could not transport it to Onondaga for the same price. The transportation would cost more than you would pay for it at Syracuse.

Mr. ALVORD-What do I understand the gentleman to say?

may be asked, why should they be taken from the Legislature? In reply, because the Legislature is not a body properly constituted to manage such a work. What can one hundred and twenty-eight men know about the management of any such work? What do they know, only

mentary remarks. Thus the subject went to the committee of ways and means, and that committee, although the Legislature closed their session on the twenty-third of April, that committee did not report the bill until April twenty-first, and what chance was there then?

as they are informed, and that information almost in favor of Syracuse, and he was in the chair. A always comes from certain interested sources, resolution was offered and a motion made to refer which may be reliable and which may not be? I it to the committee of ways and means, and the think it is a matter that need not be argued here gentleman was in the chair, and he could not that the Legislature is not a fit body to manage help putting the question. He did put it, and it any thing. It may make laws; but if you was carried, and when he came down out of the leave the whole thing in the hands of the Legis-chair, as I understood, he made no very complilature to manage, it is not a fit body in the nature of things. If you take an independent board, composed of three members representing the State, they will investigate every thing before they determine what is best for that locality, and also for the State; and they will make such rules and regulations as they may think right. It is because this has been left to the Legislature that we are in the condition that we now are. With regard to the Legislature, let me look a little further at what they have done. The gentleman refers to the Senate of 1846, and speaks of the report of these distinguished individuals. The facts of that case are these: It is true they made that report; it is true that the question was argued; but the last thing I can find upon the Journal was that it was set down for a certain Tuesday as a special order and never heard of since.

Mr. ALVORD-Does the gentleman deny that the Legislature of 1846 passed a law, in both branches of the Legislature, reducing the duty to one cent?

Mr. McDONALD-No, sir; but I undertake to say this: that the report of the committee of which Mr. Porter was chairman was made a special order for a certain Tuesday, and on that day it did not appear upon the journal and has not been heard of since.

Mr. ALVORD-The action growing out of their recommendation became the law.

Mr. McDONALD-There was nothing done with the bill reported in the Senate. I think the result was that there was a certain law ground out in the Assembly and came up to (the Senate, and I think they had a contest, and on that they had a vote. It was a contest, from the beginning to the end. At first the vote was twelve to thirteen, postponing, and thus the contest continued until at last the reduction of duty did become a law; but if any one will look at the journal he will find that the majority was at first against it notwithstanding this report; but that after a while the law was passed. Now take the other case. The gentleman refers to the committee of ways and means in the Legislature of 1864. What were the facts there? I have heard a member from my own district speak about that, and I will state what was the fact at that time. The Union was in danger. The Legislature felt that the company were taking too much for the price of the article-not from the people of the State-there was a reduction as to them-but from the United States; and they instituted an investigating committee. The gentleman from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord] was speaker in the Assembly, and, as he says he thinks it was his duty, he made the committee, with a chairman from Syracuse, and if there had been members enough from Syracuse I suppose he would have made the whole committee up from Syracuse. At any rate, the salt committee was supposed to be

Mr. ALVORD-What bill did they report? Mr. McDONALD-They reported a bill in which they refused the prayer of the petition. Mr. ALVORD-They did not report any bill. Mr. MCDONALD-They reported against the prayer of the petitioners. All I know about that is that a member who thoroughly understood the action of the committee on ways and means said they wished to do something, but during the last month they could not get the committee together to consider the subject. One was to be at the Delavan House

Mr. ALVORD-Will the gentleman allow me to ask a question, whether he has examined the records of that year, and does not know the fact that no more elaborate report was ever made by a committee of any house of the Legislature than was made by that committee that he speaks of, and upon this very subject?

Mr. McDONALD-There is no doubt about the elaborateness of the report; but the facts that I claim to state are these: that after a certain time the committee could not be got together by the friends of this measure to do any thing. Every body who knows any thing about legislation knows how measures are killed in committee. That is the easiest place to kill any measure that ever was known. And let the gentleman from Onondaga appoint a salt committee and send a bill there, and I guarantee it will be killed there beyond a doubt.

Mr. ALVORD-I rise, Mr. Chairman, to a question of personal privilege, that the gentleman from Ontario [Mr. McDonald] has no right thus to impugn my public character, acting in a public capacity.

The CHAIRMAN-The gentleman from Ontario will proceed in order.

Mr. McDONALD-I will try to be in order. I only base it upon the assertion which the gentleman made, that he would always appoint a chairman from Syracuse. And I say that any representation from Syracuse in the Legislature, if he is not like Lot's wife-if he is not transformed into a pillar of salt, he would never be returned from there again. [Laughter.] He cannot help it any more than any other man can help it that comes from that locality, or any more than my friend from Delaware [Mr. Miller] and my friend from Chenango [Mr. Prindle] can help being for State aid for railroads. They must know the interests of their locality, as the people of the community which they represent know it. I intended no imputation upon the motives of my friend from Onondaga [Mr. Alvord]. I have no doubt that if I lived in his district I should do exactly as he did. At

« AnteriorContinuar »