to 6s. 6d., and sometimes 7s., for the months of April and May. After that there is another advance during June, July, and August to at least 8s. 6d. and 9s. 6d. per box, making the cost here in New York during the winter months $2.45, during the months from March to June about $2.75 to $2.90 per box, and during the months from June to October about $3 to $3.50 per box.

You gentlemen can readily see, according to the comparison of our California friends, that they can make a fabulous profit even at the price quoted by them, $2.32, for laying down their lemons in the New York market.

There are a great many things to be taken into consideration. One is that during the winter time the California people do not dare risk bringing lemons to the eastern market, for the reason that it is dangerous for them to bring the lemons there owing to the cold weather, and they can not get heated cars in which to bring them. Therefore they keep away as much as possible from the eastern market, but during the other times lemons from California come into the New York market and command a price all the way from $3 to $5 a box. California lemons generally sell in the New York market or elsewhere at from 75 cents to $1.50 a box more than the Italian lemons can sell for, except the Majori, which comes from the neighborhood of Sorrento, Italy. That lemon comes the nearest in appearance to the California lemon, and it sells very high, but no lemon can compare with the California lemon, owing to its beautiful appearance. It is perfect. It goes through a certain process that makes it clean and beautiful, and owing to its beautiful shape it attracts the eye. It is used by the best class of people. On the other hand, the Italian lemon is used by the poor element. The American of wealth does not care whether he pays 25 cents or 50 cents a dozen for lemons. The CHAIRMAN. Please do not spend so much time on that subject. We have the names of 36 persons on the list to be heard to-day, and there will probably be a number of others. Please confine yourself to the facts and not to an argument as to whether or not the price should be lower to the poor people.

Mr. SAITTA. The only matter I want to explain to you is the matter of how the lemon is sold. For instance, the Italian lemon is sold for 1 cent in New York, and that to the poor people is certainly an advantage.

The CHAIRMAN. Lemons at 1 cent apiece are a great deal better than lemons at 5 cents apiece to either the poor or rich.

Mr. SAITTA. With some people.

Mr. BOUTELL. How much does the duty on one lemon amount to? Mr. SAITTA. There is an average of 330 lemons to a box, and of course in the summer time they ship a smaller lemon, possibly 420 to 520 in a box.

Mr. BOUTELL. About one-eighth of a cent under the present duty? Mr. SAITTA. The present duty would be a little more than oneeighth; one-third, not quite one-third.

Mr. BOUTELL. It would be less than that. How much would that cheapen the lemon?

Mr. SAITTA. The question is this: The lemon on the other side, as stated to you, costs more than the California lemon, and we can not compete with California. Therefore California has nothing to fear

even if the duty is taken off or reduced to the original amount, what it was some years ago.

The CHAIRMAN. But you do compete and take the greater part of the market?

Mr. SAITTA. The only question is this: The reason we take the bulk of the market is because California can not produce them; they have not the stuff to supply the poorer people, and if a heavier duty is placed on the goods, who is going to suffer? They can not go to California and ship oranges for lemons, and they have not the lemons. If California had the lemons to send into the market you would not need to put a cent of duty on them; they would drive out the foreign lemons themselves.

The CHAIRMAN. You can not compete on oranges?

Mr. SAITTA. We can not compete on lemons, and you will see the time when California lemons will drive out the Italian lemons, and that time will not be many years in coming.

Mr. UNDERWOOD. In brief, you contend that the only reason that the California people do not control the New York market is because they have not sufficient lemons?

Mr. SAITTA. Yes, sir; the only time when they ship lemons to New York is when they want to try to discourage the Italian people from sending their lemons to New York. If they had enough lemons to supply the demand they would not need to do that, they could sell them the same as they do the oranges. For instance, last week they shipped into the New York market-when the market was $4 and $4.25, when they saw that there was a steamer coming to the city of New Yorkthey sent 25 cars and broke the market $1 a box. They do not want the Italians to ship lemons to this country. If they do not ship the price of lemons will go up. Lemons are perishable, and the price will go up every day from 25 cents to 50 cents, and they would reap the benefit, because there are no goods in the market. Instead of $3.50, $4, $5, or $6, I have seen the time when the California lemons brought $7 a box, the same as oranges. California oranges to-day sell at from $4 to $5 a box, whereas Porto Rico oranges are selling, and I sold them myself the other day, at from 90 cents to $1.40 a box. There is no duty on the Porto Rican product, and it is a good orange, only it does not compete.

The CHAIRMAN. The five minutes you asked for expired long ago. You said that you wanted to talk on lemons for five minutes, and you have been talking much longer than that. Please get down to the facts.

Mr. SAITTA. I would like to says a few words in reference to labor. It has been stated that labor on the other side is cheap. Labor in Europe is not cheap. Labor has advanced from 2 lire to 5 lire a day. In addition to that, the work of one man in this country equals the work of two men on the other side.

Mr. UNDERWOOD. You say that the work of one man here is equal to the work of two men there?

Mr. SAITTA. Yes, sir.

Mr. UNDERWOOD. Will you please state how you have determined that fact?

Mr. SAITTA. My knowledge is from actual experience. You take an Italian, for instance, accustomed to the climate there, and he will

not work during the very hot part of the day. Furthermore, the food they eat is much heavier and makes them lazier. Second, they have not the smartness and the quickness of the American people and they do not accomplish what the American people can accomplish. Third, the scarcity of labor there now, which is caused by the enormous immigration to this country. Last year, when I was in Europe, it was hard to get a man to do a day's work; we could not find any. This year there are probably more, because a great many people have returned to Europe. They are gradually coming back, however, because you can not keep them there if they have once been in this glorious country.

Mr. CLARK. You say that the Italians eat heavier food than we do? Mr. SAITTA. I mean by heavier food that they drink a little wine. That makes them a little stupid. They eat more food cooked with oil and things of that kind, which makes the food heavier.

Mr. CLARK. I thought we ate more food than any people on earth? Mr. SAITTA. There is no question about that.

Mr. CLARK. How is it that when you bring an Italian over here that then he works better?

Mr. SAITTA. The climatic conditions are different. It is not so hot and he works better.

Mr. CLARK. How many hours a day do they work over there? Mr. SAITTA. They have their union. The time used to be from sunrise to sundown, but they do not work that way any more. Mr. CLARK. How many hours a day do they work?

Mr. SAITTA. I think it is nine hours.

Mr. CLARK. And how many hours do they work here?
Mr. SAITTA. Eight hours.

Mr. GAINES. What compensation do they get over there?
Mr. SAITTA. From 4 to 5 francs a day, about 90 cents.
Mr. GAINES. What is the compensation here?

Mr. SAITTA. It varies. The Californians claim that they pay $2. I have been in California and I know that they can get labor cheaper

than that.

Mr. CLARK. An Italian in Italy or Sicily can pick as many lemons in a day as an Italian in California or Florida can?

Mr. SAITTA. He might.

Mr. CLARK. They have the very same kind of labor in Florida and California as they have in Italy?

Mr. SAITTA. No; the farmers in Italy will not work as good as the American people.

Mr. CLARK. What I am trying to find out is what happens to an Italian from the time he leaves Italy until the time he strikes America that makes him a better laborer in the United States than in Italy? Mr. SAITTA. It is the climate and the mode of living.

Mr. CLARK. The climate is no different in Florida and California, where they raise the lemons?

Mr. SAITTA. But there is a difference in the conditions and the mode of living.

Mr. CLARK. How much is a lire in our money?

Mr. SAITTA. About 20 cents.

Mr. CLARK. They used to get 2 lires?

Mr. SAITTA. Yes, sir.

Mr. CLARK. That was about 40 or 45 cents?

Mr. SAITTA. Yes, sir.

Mr. CLARK. Now they get 5 lire?

Mr. SAITTA. Yes, sir.

Mr. CLARK. Do you know that?

Mr. SAITTA. Positively.

Mr. CLARK. That makes over a dollar a day that they get in Italy? Mr. SAITTA. From 90 cents to $1.

Mr. CLARK. Why do they not stay in Italy?

Mr. SAITTA. A great many of them do, but they can do better here. Mr. CLARK. They can not do very much better here if they are getting those large wages there?

Mr. SAITTA. That has only been of late years.

The CHAIRMAN. Do women work in the orange groves in Italy? Mr. SAITTA. Yes, sir; some of them do.

The CHAIRMAN. How much do they get?

Mr. SAITTA. Not so much as the men.

The CHAIRMAN. How much?

Mr. SAITTA. About 50 cents.

The CHAIRMAN. Do children work there picking lemons?
Mr. SAITTA. No, sir.

Mr. CLARK. You do not undertake to say that the women working in the fields only get one-half of what the men get?

Mr. SAITTA. You must understand that one man will get 3 lire and another man will get 5 lire. A man who packs lemons has to be an expert, and he gets more money than the man who picks lemons. Mr. CLARK. What we want to ascertain is what common laborers get in Italy. I am not talking about skilled laborers, but common foreign laborers.

Mr. SAITTA. There are two classes-one that carries the fruit and the other that packs the fruit.

Mr. CLARK. What does the man get who picks the lemon off the three? That is very simple work.

Mr. SAITTA. From 3 lire to 3 lire a day.

Mr. CLARK. How much is that?

Mr. SAITTA. Sixty to 70 cents. A man who packs lemons will get 90 cents.

Mr. CLARK. He is a sort of a skilled laborer?

Mr. SAITTA. Yes, sir. Of course he has to be a man who understands his business, because the Italian lemons do not run in uniform sizes.

The CHAIRMAN. What do the other laborers in the field there, besides those who pick lemons, get?

Mr. SAITTA. They get about the same amount.

Mr. CLARK. There is another question that I would like to ask you. What is the difference in the cost of living in Italy and in the United States to one of these laborers, if you know?

Mr. SAITTA. It depends on who the person is. An Italian there of the poorer class can live very cheaply. because he does without a good many things which in this country the people will not do without. Moreover, they only eat two meals a day over there, as against three meals here. In the morning the poorer class will not eat until 11 o'clock, and then they have their dinner some time during the afternoon.

Mr. CLARK. I thought you stated about ten minutes ago that they ate heavier food.

Mr. SAITTA. I mean a heavier quality of food. For instance, a man will eat a great mess of beans or lentils and use a great deal of olive oil and wine.

Mr. CLARK. Now, that does not make them feel heavier than a great big piece of bacon, does it?

Mr. SAITTA. I do not know.

Mr. CLARK. What I want to ascertain is how much is the difference to an Italian laborer who is employed in the simplest kind of labor, the one who picks these lemons off the trees and does that sort of work, how much is the difference between his cost of living and the American laborer who does the same kind of work?

Mr. SAITTA. An American will probably live up to all he earns. Mr. CLARK. I am not asking you that? Do you know what the difference is?

Mr. SAITTA. They use up every dollar they earn.

Mr. CLARK. How much does it cost the American labor and the Italian labor, if you know?

Mr. SAITTA. I do not know the difference between the one and the other.

Mr. CLARK. Then, I will withdraw the question.

Mr. BOUTELL. For whom do you appear?

Mr. SAITTA. I appear for the importers and the buyers, the dealers who buy the fruit at wholesale.

Mr. BOUTELL. What they call jobbers?

Mr. SAITTA. Yes, sir; jobbers.

Mr. BOUTELL. I do not quite understand what difference it makes to you whether lemons are $2.45 or $2.65, or whether California lemons are more or less than Italian lemons; you handle them at whatever price they are?

Mr. SAITTA. If the duty is increased the Italian lemons can not come to this country, and the importers will have to go out of busi

ness.

Mr. BOUTELL. Would they not handle the California lemons?
Mr. SAITTA. No; because those lemons are handled direct.
Mr. BOUTELL. Do you know how oranges are handled?
Mr. SAITTA. Yes, sir.

Mr. BOUTELL. Yesterday I telephoned to two groceries here in Washington for some oranges and they both gave me the same answer, that they had only two kinds, California and Florida oranges, and they said that the Florida oranges were 60 cents a dozen and the California oranges $1 a dozen. In view of the testimony we have had here, I would like to know where the profit comes in between the price at which these oranges are sold and the price which the ultimate consumer, the man who eats the orange, has to pay?

Mr. SAITTA. Oranges vary, for instance, in size from 96 up to 200 about this time of the year, and the difference in the size makes the difference in the price, and there is also a difference in the quality. A good California orange running from 126 to 150 would bring from $4.50 to $5 a box.

Mr. NEEDHAM. How can you say that when the trade journals give the price at $2 a box?