Mr. GARLAND. The difference in this case we are speaking of now is that the Amalgamated Association, which had arranged the scale of the sheet and tin mills at that time, had a tonnage rate fixed for the men to work by, and that is the case yet. In the steel mills proper, where the melting is done, you understand, this is a question of the melting, of the heating, and of the open hearth. The Bessemer is not mentioned. But in the open hearth and the crucible it is not on the tonnage system, except perhaps where there is a bonus given, as I have heard was related before this committee, for some of the works; but the rate is fixed per day or per month, and hence it could make no difference so far as getting our tonnage is concerned. This would of course, if there was an eight-hour day, reduce the wages paid to those men to the extent of the difference between eight hours' work and four hours' work, but I think that would adjust itself afterwards. Mr. MCCLEARY. You are willing to take the chances on that adjustment being satisfactory? Mr. GARLAND. Yes, sir. Mr. CALDWELL. In your opinion, what percentage of the steel produced in the United States is produced by men working ten-hour shifts and working, eight-hour shifts, respectively? Mr. GARLAND. Well, I have not gone over that recently. There are very large works at South Chicago which are on the eight-hour basis, and have arranged scales between themselves and the Amalgamated Association and the United States Steel Company. They have large works there. There is a larger number, including the Carnegie and Bethlehem works, throughout the East, that do not recognize the union and with whom there is no scale arranged. Mr. CALDWELL. You are not prepared, then, to estimate the amounts produced, respectively, by ten-hour shifts and eight-hour shifts? Mr. GARLAND. No, sir; I could not do that offhand. Some branches of the business, as, for instance, the sheet-mill business and the tin-plate business and a large number of the finishing mills-that is, making bar iron and guide iron, and so forthand some steel mills are working on the eight-hour system. Mr. CALDWELL. Do you know whether or not, approximately, the men working twelve hours are paid about 50 per cent more than the men working the eight-hour shift? Mr. GARLAND. They are not. Mr. MCCLEARY. Why not, in your judgment? Mr. GARLAND. I do not know that. I could not answer that exactly. The fact is this: For skilled work a man can demand so much, and if he works longer hours and is willing to work longer hours they can give him just what they please, especially in the mills which are not organized. I will say to you, gentlemen, that I could not say much about the rates of wages paid, except this, that they are lower. There is no voice on the part of the men as to what they shall be paid and no possibility of a protest, from the fact that they are separate. Mr. MCCLEARY. You mean that their rate is lower by the hour for the twelve-hour day than it is by the hour for the eight-hour day? Mr. GARLAND. Yes. In the eight-hour mills, as I have stated heretofore, they are about all on tonnage, and consequently they work in that way. Mr. WARNOCK. In what you call the eight-hour mills, do they permit any overtime at all or do they close at the close of the eight hours? Mr. GARLAND. The other turn comes on and takes their place, of necessity. Mr. WARNOCK. Then a man in an eight-hour mill can not work extra time; is that what you mean? Mr. GARLAND. The system is arranged that way, and a man is not supposed to work longer than his time, except he does it to oblige another man who may be called away on occasion for, say, an hour or a half hour. Mr. WARNOCK. What do the men think about the proposition.to have an arbitrary day of eight hours, without the privilege on their part of making a little extra pay by working overtime. Mr. GARLAND. My experience with them is that they always prefer the eighthour day. Mr. WARNOCK. And not to have the privilege of working extra time? Mr. WARNOCK. They do not desire it? Mr. GARLAND. They think it is a bad system. Of course, my experience has been among men who were organized, and in our annual convention these things are all gone over and I get the opinions in that way. I meet those who are in unorganized mills casually; I know them; some of them that have been union are nonunion. Mr. WARNOCK. And the men believe that it is better to have a fixed eight-hour day than to have the extra time? Mr. GARLAND. Yes, sir; and I think those who are nonunion to-day, at least those I have met, also prefer eight hours. Mr. WARNOCK. It has been claimed by some that the workmen would be dissatisfied if the privilege of working two or three hours was taken away from them; that they would not want to be deprived of that extra pay. Mr. GARLAND. I think there would be very few exceptions to the eight hours. Mr. MCCLEARY. Of course there is a great deal about this that we do not know, and that is why we are glad to have you here. Mr. GARLAND. Yes, sir. Mr. MCCLEARY. This work that you are speaking of now must be done in shifts; that is, they have to work together, and can not work individually? Mr. GARLAND. Yes, sir; they have to work together. Mr. MCCLEARY. And if one man wanted to work, having extra strength, more than others, of mind and body, and higher powers, he would have to do it at the expense of some other man whose place he would have to take, would he not? Mr. GARLAND. Yes, sir. For instance, they work in crews, as it were. Mr. GOMPERS. I have no further questions to ask. Mr. MCCLEARY. Judge McCammon would like to ask a few questions of Mr. Garland. Mr. McCAMMON. Are you employed at present in your line? Mr. GARLAND. Not in the mills; no, sir. Mr. MCCAMMON. What is your occupation at the present time? Mr. GARLAND. I am now surveyor of customs of Pittsburg. Mr. MCCAMMON. When you testified a little while ago in regard to the manufacture of steel, what kind of steel did you refer to? Mr. GARLAND. I referred to the making of armor plate, and I referred to the making of steel from the open-hearth process of all kinds. Mr. MCCAMMON. Have you engaged in the manufacture of armor plate yourself? Mr. GARLAND. Not directly. Mr. McCAMMON. Have you ever taken part in the manufacture of large forgings? Mr. GARLAND. Yes, sir. Mr. McCAMMON. How large-to what extent? Mr. GARLAND. I suppose some of them would weigh ten or twelve tons, that I handled. Mr. McCAMMON. At what mill? Mr. GARLAND. At Oliver & Phillip's-a mill in Pittsburg, which is now the Oliver Iron and Steel Works. Mr. McCAMMON. Oliver Brothers? Mr. GARLAND. Yes, sir. Mr. McCAMMON. Has your attention been called to the testimony of Mr. Archibald Johnston, general superintendent of the Bethlehem Steel Company, given before this committee on Thursday, February 13, 1902? Mr. GARLAND. Yes, sir. Mr. McCAMMON. I would like to read some extracts from that testimony and ask your opinion in regard to that. Mr. Johnston says, on page 3 of his printed testimony, among other things: No one can transmit the refinements of details arising in the manufacture of heats of high-grade steel to another, any more than any one man can completely and clearly convey to another the workings of his brain by a letter. Such things can be done partially by actual conversation, by actual contact, but I defy any man to clearly convey to another by means of a letter what he has in his thoughts. "Certain grades of steel can be melted much more rapidly than others. The simpler the grade the more easy a manufacture, the more familiar are people with it." Is that correct in your opinion, or not? Mr. GARLAND. No, sir; it is not correct, so far as conveying the parts of a heat to another is concerned. Mr. MCCAMMON. I would ask you specially with regard to that last: "Certain grades of steel can be melted much more rapidly than others. The simpler the grade, the more easy of manufacture, the more familiar are people with it." Mr. GARLAND. I think that is right. Mr. McCAMMON. He then adds: "Some of the heats can be made in four hours; others of higher qualities require ten hours or twelve hours, or even more time." Is that correct? Mr. GARLAND. Yes; that is correct. Mr. MCCAMMON (reading). "Those of course requiring more time are those which possess larger proportions of fine alloys and are less seldom made." Is that correct? Mr. GARLAND. I think that is true. Mr. MCCAMMON (reading). “Again, certain grades of steel are required to be held after melting, but before pouring, for a certain amount of time, depending upon the uses to which they are to be put, while others need to be held a very short time; still others must be held for a longer period, depending upon the uses, as I before stated, to which they are to be put, or until certain desired changes in the composition are obtained by a thorough admixture of the ingredients. A certain time must be allowed for the escape of injurious gases that may be in the different ingredients. This does not apply so much to the ordinary run of steels, but does apply, nevertheless. For this reason, as above stated, more than eight hours are required and are consumed in the manufacture of many grades of steel, even though the resultant weight produced may be only 120 pounds or less of crucible steel; still, more than eight hours are often consumed in its manufacture." Is that correct? Mr. GARLAND. Yes, sir. Mr. McCAMMON (reading). "I have seen heats of crucible steel up to 60 tons poured from hand pots by men into one mold. A heat of this kind requires the constant supervision of one very able man and numerous assistants, and sometimes in time anywhere from ten to fifteen hours' consecutive work, and an army of men of from 1,200 to 1,500 or 1,600.” Is that correct?. Mr. GARLAND. No, sir. Mr. McCAMMON. Why not? Mr. GARLAND. That part is correct that a large casting is poured from numerous crucibles or pots, as we call them, but a number of men are not required all that time. Mr. MCCAMMON. Not the supervision of one man and assistants? Mr. GARLAND. One man at the time the crew is there. A melter takes charge and supervises the crew while they are on duty, and if it runs over twelve hours, the other melter takes charge and directs the crew. Mr. MCCAMMON. And do you contend that the steel will be as even for armor plate and forgings? Mr. GARLAND. Yes, sir; that is the practice. the ships of our Navy that are sailing to-day. Mr. MCCAMMON. We are speaking of the exceptions; we are not speaking of the regular way. Mr. GARLAND. I am talking of exceptions; my experience with men in making wages for them, who were working armor plate, who were making a very large size, and the kind of armor plate that is put on our ships to-day, who built the armor plate that is on the ships of our Navy that are sailing to-day. Mr. MCCAMMON. Do you know of your own personal knowledge as to the manufacture of armor? Mr. GARLAND. Yes, sir. Mr. MCCAMMON. Have you engaged in the manufacture of armor? Mr. GARLAND. I have told you that I was then making scales of wages for the men who were each year. Mr. MCCAMMON. Yes, sir; and I understood you also to say that you have engaged personally in the manufacture of armor plate. Mr. GARLAND. I did not say armor plate. I said I was engaged in the making of the scales of wages. I said that I had made large pieces of iron that were for Government use. Mr. MCCAMMON. You stated that you had engaged in the manufacture of forgings of as large weight as 10 tons? Mr. GARLAND. Yes, sir. Mr. MCCAMMON. And you want to be understood, then, as saying that you have never actively engaged in the manufacture of armor plate yourself? Mr. MCCAMMON. What is your information on the subject? Have you ever heard from any of the men engaged in such labor that they did work-had worked-- more than eight hours a day on such plate? Mr. GARLAND. They certainly did, because they were working the twelve-hour system. Mr. MCCAMMON. The twelve-hour system? Mr. McCAMMON. Have you any information from these men as to whether the quality of the plate was enhanced by continuous labor? Mr. GARLAND. They all contend that it does not make any difference. Mr. MCCAMMON. As to the ordinary man; but as to those who are of superior skill. Mr. GARLAND. We are talking of those who are of superior skill now, as well as the ordinary man. As I stated before, the melter or the man in charge of the furnace directs his own crew, and they change when the hour comes, the usual hour. Mr. MCCAMMON. Have you any knowledge whatsoever, from first-hand or secondhand, of armor being made in an eight-hour shift? Mr. GARLAND. Oh, yes. There is armor plate now being made in an eight-hour shift. Mr. MCCAMMON. Where? Mr. GARLAND. In all the mills that make it, of some size. Mr. McCAMMON. That is, depending on the size? Mr. GARLAND. Small quantities. Mr. MCCAMMON. Small plates? Mr. GARLAND. Yes, sir. I will say to you that we agree in the fact that larger sizes and smaller sizes are being made with Mr. Johnston. But Mr. Johnston has not said that the men do not in any instance change from twelve hours; and this committee has been led to believe, from the questions asked me at the present time, and that I was asked by the chairman, that they do work continuously always in working the finest steel until the turn is finished. Mr. MCCAMMON. That part of the testimony of Mr. Johnston that I read said that very thing. Mr. GARLAND. I beg your pardon. I say my statement is that Mr. Johnston nowhere in his evidence said that the men did not change on the twelve-hour turns that is, when they had worked twelve hours. Mr. McCAMMON. Do you know, as a matter of fact, that there are now two shifts in manufacturing armor? Do you know that as a fact? Mr. GARLAND. I know there are two shifts in manufacturing armor. There were in Homestead; there are in Homestead. I do not know what they do in Bethlehem. Mr. MCCLEARY. If they were working on a twelve-hour shift and it happened in a given instance to take fifteen hours, what could they do? Mr. GARLAND. Working a twelve-hour shift, the next turn coming on would take it and finish it. Mr. CALDWELL So in the making of plates it would require fifteen hours, even sixteen hours, and if there was a twelve-hour shift they would change after working twelve hours, and the first shift would work twelve hours and the next shift four hours, where the two eight-hour shifts would simply change in the middle of the sixteen hours? Mr. GARLAND. Yes, sir. Mr. CALDWELL. Now, would that by working one shift twelve hours and the next four hours make any better quality of steel-having one set of men continuously for twelve hours? Why would it make better steel than by having it divided in the middle of the sixteen hours? Mr. GARLAND. I think a man can give better work when he is at his best. There is no question of that. It is like other work; it has got to have a man's full strength, and he has to give his full effort to it, and with shorter hours he can do that. Mr. MCCAMMON. Suppose melting is on, and, as you assumed, which may be the fact-I know that it is so far as your knowledge is concerned-there is a shift of twelve hours. Does it follow that all the men are changed, the man who started the heat, also, with the helpers and these high-priced assistants? Is it not a fact that the man and his immediate assistants who start a heat go through with it until completed? Mr. GARLAND. That they do not. They did not in Homestead. Mr. MCCAMMON. They did not. Mr. GARLAND. They do not in Homestead. Mr. McCAMMON. Under what circumstances have you acquired your knowledge? Mr. GARLAND. I have stated before, by actually arranging the wages and hours for several years of the men and with employers at Homestead, between the men and the employers. Mr. MCCLEARY. The skilled men, as I understand it, quits at the same time as the unskilled man; they both quit at the end of their shift? Mr. GARLAND. Yes, sir; the man who has charge; that is correct. The heater has a number of helpers and the melter has men under him. Mr. RHEA. Both he and his crew go off? Mr. GARLAND. Yes, sir. Mr. MCCLEARY. The director and his crew work a certain number of hours? Mr. MCCLEARY. And when one quits the other quits? Mr. GARLAND. Yes, sir. That has been the custom. I could not say what they do at Bethlehem, because I have no personal acquaintance with that. I can only speak of what I saw, and I have had experience in the Homestead works. Mr. McCAMMON. There is a great deal of difference in the capacity to finish a large casting of 100 tons, say-if you please? Mr. GARLAND. Yes, sir. Mr. McCAMMON. In eight hours and twelve hours? Mr. GARLAND. Yes, sir. Mr. McCAMMON. It is much less likely to be completed in eight hours than twelve hours? Mr. GARLAND. I think that is right. The large castings take more time. Mr. McCAMMON. Then the four hours' change or the two hours' change may be very important from a manufacturing mechanical standpoint? Mr. GARLAND. Yes, sir; it may be if not properly taken care of; but it is taken care of by the next crew now. Mr. MCCAMMON. That we contend is entirely begging the question. Mr. GARLAND. You might say that as to fifteen or twenty-four hour crews. I would like to ask, if the Judge will permit, if it is his intention now to inaugurate a new system to govern the committee in its actions from the one now in operation. That is, does he want to institute a plan of working fifteen or sixteen hours on the crew or is he going to accept what they are doing now in that business? Mr. MCCAMMON. What do you mean by "he" and "they?" Mr. GARLAND. In your questioning of me you seem to try to leave off the question that they now work twelve hours, and incline to the belief that they work fifteen or sixteen hours. Mr. McCAMMON. Of course you are fixing the question and answering it. I understand Mr. GARLAND. No, sir; I was asking you if you intended to so imply. Mr. McCAMMON. I do not quite understand your remark, but I do not intend to do anything more than contend that it is wrong to the laboring man and wrong to everyone to compel him to force himself to leave off work at the end of eight hours whether he wants to or not. That is my contention, and I am simply trying to elucidate that contention. Mr. GOMPERS. And your further contention is to try and prove that the system is impossible. Mr. MCCAMMON. Nobody ever said that. Mr. GOMPERS. That is the contention of everybody upon your side. Mr. McCAMMON. Not at all. Mr. GOMPERS. The record shows it. Mr. MCCAMMON. Oh, no; it does not. Mr. GOMPERS. The witnesses say it. Mr. McCAMMON. They do not say it is impossible. Mr. GOMPERS. Well, I say positively that the record shows it. It has been said to be impossible. Mr. MCCAMMON. Never. The word impossible has never been used. Mr. MCCAMMON. No, sir. It is mechanically preferable, and to obtain the best results and that is the contention of Mr. Johnston and Mr. Dinkey-that one shift should be permitted to work more than eight hours if necessity demands in order to obtain the best results. That is the position of these witnesses and that is our position. The eight-hour system may be the best, but to compel a manufacturer to stop working his men, to stop a shift, at the end of eight hours, on a large casting, when better results may be obtained by permitting those men to work ten hours or twelve hours, that is the proposition. Mr. GARLAND. I appreciate that, and I am saying simply in reply that now when castings run over twelve hours the men change, and it brings it back to the same point where it was. Mr. McCAMMON. I understand your position; it does not militate against mine. Mr. GARLAND. We agree, do we? Mr. MCCLEARY. I understand the fact to be that at the end of twelve hours they do change. Now, would it not be better for these men who have gone for twelve hours to continue for three hours more and complete the casting? Mr. GARLAND. Would it be better? Mr. MCCLEARY. Yes. |