man were to take hold of that job, he would have to start from the beginning. He would not understand what the base lines meant, why they were put there, or what they were, unless he started from the beginning. To put a second man on that job would simply amount to doing the work of the first man over again. The laying out of a piece, before it goes on the machine, is necessary to make sure that the casting is made according to the drawing. It may be, and generally is, a little different from the drawing, and there is a certain amount of giving and taking that has to be done between different points before it can be used. If it were put right on the machine without laying out, the first man on the job would probably do something that would make it doubtful that the other operations would pan out all right.

Mr. HAYDEN. In other words, you are never sure of getting a casting exactly in accordance with the drawing so that you can plane off a certain fraction of an inch at each point and fit your drawing? Mr. GLOCKER. No, sir.

Mr. HAYDEN. There are irregularities in each casting?

Mr. GLOCKER. In the large castings even in the metal from the same melt, there are differences in shrinkage, and there is a certain amount of humoring to be done in order not to get certain parts too thin.

Mr. HAYDEN. And this laying-out process is gone through?

Mr. GLOCKER. That is done to get the very best out of the casting as it comes from the mold. Of course if the shrinkage is excessive (even under the best of conditions our castings do not come out quite right), the casting will be rejected and must be thrown away.

Now, from the standpoint of a mechanic, which I am, I object to this bill because it will limit my hours of labor and thereby will diminish my earning capacity. It is true that at the present time I am not working by the hour, but I do not know but what I will be at some future time. If I were working in the shop, I am sure I would seriously object to having a bill passed by Congress that would not allow me to work as long as I pleased, and I feel confident that that is the sentiment of most of the men in our shops; I know that it is of a great many that I have known for a great many years. find in my experience that men in the shop are much more anxiou to earn more money than they are to work fewer hours. I believe that if this bill were passed, and we were obliged to work our men only eight hours a day on all Government work, we would lose a big percentage of those men on account of their going to other shops where they would have the privilege of working ten hours and thereby earn correspondingly more money.

I

Mr. HASKINS. That would be in commercial shops, on commercial

work?

Mr. GLOCKER. That would be in shops where there was no Government work going on. I think that is about all I have to say.

Mr. DAVENPORT. In regard to the practical enforcement of this law, laws are of no use unless they are enforced, and when you are doing Government work and commercial work, is it separated in different parts of the shop?

Mr. GLOCKER. In our shop at the present time we have work for battle ships and for torpedo-boat destroyers, for hydraulic turbines, coke oven machinery, sugar apparatus, hydraulic presses, and a great many more that I can not think of at the present moment.

Mr. DAVENPORT. This bill contemplates that the restrictions shall apply only to the time on Government work.

Mr. GLOCKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. DAVENPORT. It would be simply putting a man at work and shifting him off onto some other work. In enforcing such a law in such a shop as yours, how on earth could they ever tell and keep account so that they would ever know how much time a man was working on Government work?

Mr. GLOCKER. That would be very difficult.

Mr. DAVENPORT. How many inspectors would it require to even decide in the first place whether or not all the men were working on Government work?

Mr. GLOCKER. I do not see how a Government inspector could keep track of it. In fact, it would be very difficult for us to keep track of it, because there are a great many operations in the shop that last over a very short period, sometimes only a half hour or a quarter of an hour, the men may work on Government work for, say, an hour or an hour and a half in the morning, and they may get another job then, not Government work, and after that they may get Government work again, it would be an awful job to keep tab to see whether a man had worked more than eight hours on Government work.

Mr. DAVENPORT. It would take about one inspector for each man, would it not?

Mr. GLOCKER. I do not know about that, but it would take pretty near it.

Mr. DAVENPORT. Under this law as it is drawn it says:

No penalties shall be imposed for any violation of such provision in such contract due to any emergency caused by fire, famine, or flood, by danger to life or to property, or by other extraordinary event or condition.

Now, in taking the chances as to whether you were within the law or not, to whom would you go to determine for you whether a man worked more than eight hours?

Mr. GLOCKER. I would not know who would determine whether it was an extraordinary occasion or not.

Mr. DAVENPORT. Or what was an extraordinary occasion?

Mr. GLOCKER. Yes, sir.

Mr. DAVENPORT. In other words, the matter is all fog?

Mr. GLOCKER. It would seem so to me.

Mr. DAVENPORT. That is all.

Mr. HAYDEN. You had mentioned your feeling with regard to the limitation of the hours that you are permitted to work, and what you believe to be the feeling of other laborers and mechanics in the service of the Cramp Company. If you can, I would like you to go into that question with a little more detail and tell us of particular instances in which you know men have sought an opportunity to do overtime work with the idea of getting extra money, and what it has led to in their condition.

Mr. GLOCKER. Only last week, in going through the shops, I had three different men come to me. By the way, at present we are working short time.

Mr. HAYDEN. Nine hours?

Mr. GLOCKER. Nine hours a day. Last week in going through the shops I had three different men stop me and ask me how soon we were going to resume full time. They at least, and I presume the rest, also are anxious to get back to full time so as to have the opportunity of

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earning the money for the additional hour; it is not an uncommon occurrence to have men ask for the privilege of working overtime. Not long ago a man asked for that privilege, and in talking to him I found out what he was after. He was trying to pay off a mortgage on a home he recently bought; he said that by having the opportunity of making this additional time, it would enable him to pay the mortgage off a little quicker. Now, this is a privilege that I, as a working man, feel should not be denied me.

Mr. HAYDEN. I have nothing further, unless some member of the committee desires to ask the witness questions.

Mr. VREELAND. I have nothing.

STATEMENT OF MR. JOHN F. KEEN, FOREMAN SHIPWRIGHT FOR THE WILLIAM CRAMP & SONS COMPANY.

Mr. HAYDEN. How long have you been connected with the Cramp company?

Mr. KEEN. I started with the Cramp company in 1868.

Mr. HAYDEN. What position do you occupy?

Mr. KEEN. Foreman shipwright.

Mr. HAYDEN. What positions have you occupied from time to time?

Mr. KEEN. From time to time? I started in as a boy, practically, and came up as a mechanic, and I worked at regular mechanic's pay, 30 cents an hour, after I became a man, for the Cramp company, and then I worked along, and they increased me. At first I started in as a contractor-a subcontractor.

Mr. HAYDEN. That is you entered into contracts with the company? Mr. KEEN. Yes, sir; subcontracts; and I worked, I think, at subcontracting about four years, and then they made me a quarterman. Then from quarterman I advanced to foreman of the department of shipwrights and I had charge, I guess, for the last twenty-eight years, or something like that, of the shipwright department. That is taking in the vessel as she comes from the mold loft, and you lay the keel blocks and put the keel on the blocks, and regulate the ship and run all lines and "ribbing," and see that she is put in good shape; and I have charge also of launching the ship, and the carpenter jobs; all that comes under the shipwright department.

Mr. HAYDEN. That is, you have had to do that, or had supervision of that work on the ships?

Mr. KEEN. Yes, I have had supervision of that work on the ships. We work a great deal subcontract. Our men are almost always willing to work subcontract.

Mr. HAYDEN. They would rather do that?

Mr. KEEN. Yes; we have been following it up almost since 1876. Mr. HAYDEN. From the standpoint of the subcontractor?

Mr. KEEN. Yes, sir; from the standpoint of the subcontractor. Mr. HAYDEN. Employed by the Cramp company?

Mr. KEEN. Employed by the Cramp company.

Mr. HAYDEN. Tell us about those subcontracts, how they are let? Mr. KEEN. We generally put in a bid, the foreman does, to the Cramp company. They give him the details, the number of jobs to complete the ship in the department, such as the decks, the ceiling,

the boats and boat davits, and the bitts and chocks throughout the ship. On the Government ships we do not give much out, but on the merchant work we do. We have contracted some of the work on merchant ships, such as decks, and the rate of pay is 30 cents an hour.

Mr. HAYDEN. That is the minimum wage?

Mr. KEEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. HAYDEN. The contractor, the subcontractor, gets that anyhow? Mr. KEEN. Yes, sir; that is sure, that 30 cents. The subcontractor runs no risk of losing anything.

Mr. HAYDEN. Where does he get his material?
Mr. KEEN. That is furnished by the company.

Mr. HAYDEN. That is not charged against him?

Mr. KEEN. No, sir; anything he would spoil, the company stands good for it.

Mr. HAYDEN. If he spoils material, or his men do, that is the company's loss?

Mr. KEEN. That is the company's loss. Under the last contract they gave out on a merchant ship, the contractor made 25 per cent over and above his wages.

Mr. HAYDEN. What do the contracts cover, the labor?

Mr. KEEN. Just the labor; yes, sir.

Mr. HAYDEN. They have nothing to do with the material?
Mr. KEEN. No material at all.

Mr. HAYDEN. Who furnishes the tools you use?

Mr. KEEN. The Cramp company furnishes the tools and maintains the shops. The carpenter furnishes his own tools.

Mr. HAYDEN. Where do the subcontractors get their labor? Are they restricted to employees of the yard?

Mr. KEEN. No, sir; they can take the men from the yard or from outside, as they see fit. The contractor can select the best men for the jobs.

Mr. HAYDEN. And what arrangement does the subcontractor make with the men he employs to do his work?

Mr. KEEN. He makes the arrangement that they have got to come. under the rules and regulations of the Cramp company.

Mr. HAYDEN. And every one of his employees gets a minimum wage?

Mr. KEEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. HAYDEN. Is it customary for the subcontractor to allow him anything more?

Mr. KEEN. Yes, sir; he has a privilege, after the job is done, to make him a present, or to make an agreement to increase his pay according to the amount he makes on the job. That is the custom, for the subcontractor to offer his man a bonus to expedite the work. That is, the rate is 30 cents an hour, and he will say, "I will give you 35 cents or 40 cents an hour, according to the work you turn out on the job."

Mr. HAYDEN. Because it is to the contractor's advantage to finish the work quickly?

Mr. KEEN. Yes; and he can work in the summer time, beginning at half past 4 o'clock in the morning, so as to get out of the heat of the day, or have the privilege of working on and making the extra hour, or take the regular hours.

Mr. HAYDEN. And all the men in the shipwright's department do not go to work at the same time-I mean throughout the year? Mr. KEEN. No, sir; we work here all outdoors work, and we start in at 7 o'clock and quit at 5.

Mr. HAYDEN. Those are the regular hours?

Mr. KEEN. In the winter season.

Mr. HAYDEN. How about in bad weather?

Mr. KEEN. In bad weather they lose. That is the reason that makes the men under me willing to make overtime or increase the hours.

Mr. HAYDEN. How about the summer, when the day is long and the midday is hot?

Mr. KEEN.. They prefer coming in a little earlier in the summer time.

Mr. HAYDEN. And that is permitted?

Mr. KEEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. HAYDEN. Now, you are obliged in summer, when part of your men come to work at 7-I have forgotten the earlier hour; did you say half past 4?

Mr. KEEN. Yes, sir; some of them will come in that early when they have contract work.

Mr. HAYDEN. Would it be possible for you to keep track of all of them and make certain that none of them worked more than eight hours in the course of the day?

Mr. KEEN. We generally have a timekeeper to go around and correct all the times on the ship. It is very seldom they miss anything like that.

Mr. HAYDEN. I mean, if you were obliged to compel a man to stop work after he had been engaged at it for eight hours, would that be feasible, with the men coming to work early in the morning and laying off at midday and coming in again in the evening?

Mr. KEEN. Well, I do not think the men would be satisfied to quit.
Mr. HAYDEN. You do not?

Mr. KEEN. No, sir; I think a man would want to work on.
Mr. HAYDEN. That is, you believe a man would want to make-
Mr. KEEN. All the extra time he can.

Mr. HAYDEN. Upward of eight hours, to get the compensation? Mr. KEEN. Yes, sir. I have had men come to me, at the present time, not over a couple of weeks ago. Of course we have been losing a great deal of time, and they are working only nine hours, and they are very anxious to see the time increased to ten hours-ten and a quarter hours, with three quarters of an hour at dinner time. Then we lose Saturday afternoons, you know, so that cuts the week up pretty well. If they should lose a day and then Saturday afternoon, there would not be much left in a stormy week.

Mr. HAYDEN. Taking the branches of the shipyard work coming within your direct supervision, would it be difficult or impossible to carry them out on an eight-hour basis where overtime work was forbidden?

Mr. KEEN. I think it would be very difficult for us to establish an eight-hour basis on a great many jobs I have to look after. Here was an instance just about three weeks ago. Of course we are starting a little ahead of time to launch this battle ship, the South Carolina. The ways in our yard runs about 18 inches under the low-water tide..