Mr. Chan

matter. With regard to his not having made up his mind upon the subject, he certainly had not as yet, having fat fo fhort a time in Parliament.

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Mr. Chancellor Pitt rofe to fecond Mr. Sawbridge's recellor Pitt. quifition. He declared, that no private opinion of his, that it was not the beft poffible moment to urge the question in, or the moment moft likely to bring it forward with advantage to the cause he had fo much at heart, fhould induce him to do any thing, that might look like discountenancing the principle of the queftion of the day; he therefore earnestly hoped the noble Lord would fo far comply with what pretty plainly appeared to be the general fenfe of all fides of the Houfe, as to withdraw the previous queftion. To move fuch a queftion, upon a motion of fuch magnitude and importance, as that which had been under difcuffion so many hours, was certainly very unusual, and would throw a flur, as it were, upon the question itself, that ought not, in his opinion, by any means to be thrown upon it. He hoped, therefore, the noble Lord would not perfift in the previous queftion, but would fuffer the Houfe to vote on the main queftion. If, however, it should fo turn out, that the noble Lord could not be prevailed on to withdraw his motion, he cautioned the Houfe, that by voting againft the previous queftion, they might have an opportunity of getting rid of it, and by that means vote afterwards upon the main queftion. He, therefore, he declared, fhould certainly vote against the previous question, if the noble Lord fhould ftill perfift in it.

Mr. Sheri

can.

Mr. Sheridan faid, fo far from his thinking what had fallen early in the debate from the young member, who had spoken laft but one, rendered a previous queftion either neceffary or proper, the motion of his honourable friend, the worthy Alderman, appeared to him to be exactly adapted to the fituation of the honourable member; because the motion was not a motion for this or that particular mode of reform, but a motion for the appointment of a Committee to inquire into the ftate of the reprefentation. From that Committee the honourable gentleman might learn facts, upon a knowledge of which alone he could form an opinion, and make up his mind; he hoped, therefore, the noble Lord would not perfift in his motion for the previous queftion. From the noble Lord's well-known candour, he was inclined to hope he would withdraw it; and indeed he had another reason for thinking fo, which appeared to him to be a very forcible one, and to be likely to operate more upon his mind, that any

other

other he could fuggeft, and that was, a confideration for the character of the right honourable gentleman at the head of the Exchequer. That right honourable gentleman had fupported the motion fo ably and fo vigorously in the course of the debate, that he was himself perfectly fatisfied and convinced, that the right honourable gentleman, notwithstanding he might not, in his own private opinion, think that the best moment for bringing the fubje&t forward, was fincerely a well-wisher to the motion, and a real friend to a fober and temperate parliamentary reform. What a rifque then would the noble Lord put his right honourable friend to, if by moving a previous queftion at that late hour of the night, he afforded the public room for fufpicion, that fuch a motion was made collufively, and with the right honourable gentleman's connivance? For thefe reafons, he hoped the noble Lord would withdraw his motion.

Lord North rofe to defend the previous quefton. His Lord- Ld. North. fhip faid, he faw nothing improper in moving the previous question; there were two defcriptions of perfons about to vote that day, viz. thofe who thought with him upon the fubject, and were enemies to any and every alteration of the Conftitution; and those again, who were not averse to the principle of a reform, but thought that not the fit time for it. Now the previous queftion would fuit either of thefe defcriptions, and therefore it appeared to him to be highly. proper With regard to the motion's fuiting the honourable member, who had declared he had not made up his mind. upon the subject of parliamentary reform, he could not fee how it would fuit him, because if he went to the Committee, he might hear fomething of different modes of reform, and which of them the majority of the Committee might approve, but it could not enable him to make up his mind in' favour of which he ought to decide.,

Mr. Sawbridge rofe again to explain He charged the Mr. Sawnoble Lord with having intirely misapprehended his motion; bridge. and, to convince the Houfe, that fuch was the fact, he defired the motion might be read. This having been complied with, Mr. Sawbridge reminded the House, that there was no fuch word as reform in the whole motion; the motion was merely for a Committee to be appointed to inquire into the ftate of the representation, and therefore undoubtedly was fuch a motion as might fairly be voted for by the honourable young member who had rifen fo lately. Mr. Sawbridge. Ee 2

again

Mr. Wilberforce,

Lord Mul

grave.

Mr. Sheridan.

again appealed to Lord Mulgrave's candour, and begged him to withdraw his previous queftion.

Mr. Wilberforce faid, he fincerely wifhed the honourable Alderman had not brought on his motion that day, because being a hearty and zealous well-wifher to a parliamentary reform; he fhould have been glad it had come on at a better feafon So determined, however, was he to do nothing that might look like a wifh to discountenance the principle of the motion, that he would certainly vote against the previous queftion.

Lord Mulgrave faid, he had been fo particularly called upon, that he muft neceffarily fay a few words - His candour had been appealed to, in a manner he thought rather extraordinary-What had candour to do with the question? Was there any thing unfair in his moving a previous queftion upon a motion, the friends of which were violently divided in opinion, a great part of them thinking that to be an unfit time for it to be brought on. With regard to the injury his perfifting in the previous queftion might do the character of his right honourable friend, he had no idea of that being poffible; his right honourable friend's character was, he trufted, far too firmly established to be shaken by fo flender a circumftance, though he had heard the prophetic mifrepresentation and the invidious comment that was intended to be put upon it - His Lordship difdained the imputation of collufion, and faid, if there was any crime in propofing the previous queftion, the noble Lord in the blue ribband was his accomplice in that foul crime; that noble Lord was too manly a character to warrant any fufpicion of an undue motive for what he had done; he fhould therefore acknow, ledge no compunction. His Lordship concluded with declaring, that he should perfift in his motion for the previous question.

Mr. Sheridan rofe again to complain of Lord Mulgrave's having talked of prophetic mifrepresentations and invidious comments. -No part of what had fallen from him, he was perfuaded, juftified fuch infinuations He had declared he was perfectly convinced of the fincerity of the right honourable gentleman's zeal for the principle of the worthy Alder. man's motion, and had deprecated the confequences that might follow any of the right honourable gentleman's friends moving the previous queftion. People without doors who were not perfectly apprised of all that had paffed in the debate, might conceive, that it was a trick and a connivance,

and

and that the previous question was moved with the right hon. gentleman's confent and concurrence-It was in order to avert this mifconftruction, that he had exhorted the noble Lord to act candidly, and not perfift in his motion; and he had been not a little induced to prefs the withdrawing of the previous queftion upon the noble Lord, from the right honourable Chancellor of the Exchequer's having himself been the firft to declare, that difpofing of the motion by the previous queftion, was cafting a flur upon the very important topic to which it bore fo immediate reference.

Sir Francis Baffett begged, before the question was put, to Sir Francis be permitted to fay a fingle word to it Sir Francis declar. Ballett. ed, he did not with the previous queftion to have been moved, because he was defirous that a direct negative fhould be put upon the main queftion, in order that it might be laid at reft for ever; having maturely confidered the fubject, and being decidedly of opinion, that any alteration in the state of parliamentary reprefentation would prove highly dangerous and deftructive to the Conftitution.

Mr. W. Grenville faid, he was not only extremely forry the Mr. Wm previous question had been moved, but he had hoped the noble Grenville. Lord would have been prevailed on to have withdrawn it, becaufe his wifh was, to have the sense of the House taken upon the motion for a Committee, when he meant to have given it his negative; and he flattered himself, that the subject of a parliamentary reform, as far as it could in the nature of things, would have been put to fleep for ever. Mr. Grenville faid farther, that greatly as he admired his right honourable friend, and greatly as he revered his fplendid abilities, he fhould have loft much of that admiration, and much of that reverence, if he could have entertained fo poor an opinion of him as to have thought him capable of expecting a fervile compliance with his particular fentiments on every great and important queftion. He had no fuch opinion of him, and therefore he rose to declare, that he was an enemy to the principle of the original queftion, and that he should vote against the previous queftion, in hopes of being able to give his negative to the main question.

The question was then put, and the Houfe divided;

The Speaker.

Mr. Huffey.

Admiral Sir

Thomas Frankland.

June 18.

The Speaker called the attention of the Houfe to a difficulty which had occurred, at the office of the Clerk of the Crown An indenture, purporting to be a return for the boroughs of Inverness, &c. and figned by the Sheriff of Elgin, had been tendered him; but he declined accepting it, as it ought to have been annexed to the writ; he therefore applied to the House for inftructions - It was agreed to take the matter into confideration on the Monday following

The Houfe went into a Committee of Supply, and Mr. Brett rose to move the ordinary of the navy He would not go at length into the detail, as the establishment was exactly the fame as that voted in the last feffion of the last Parliament; he would make his motions therefore in the ufual way-and firft, he moved for 701,8691. os. 6d. for the ordinary, including half-pay to sea and marine officers for 1784.

Mr. Huffey condemned, as he had often done before, this manner of demanding money for the public fervice; he was well aware, that it was fcarcely poffible for Minifters to apply fums voted to the particular objects for which they had been demanded, as it was often found neceffary to lay out in the repair of one ship, what had been voted for the repairs of another, the idea, therefore, that he had of these eftimates, was, in fact, that they called for a certain fum of money for uncertain purposes; and therefore he would ftrongly recommend it to Government, to apply in future for a grant of money on account, without ftating for what purpose; and afterwards to give a fatisfactory account of the application and expenditure of that fum: for in truth it was ridiculous to find the fame fhip in every year's estimate, to fee, that perhaps 100,000l. might have been voted for the repairs of that fhip, though every fhilling of that money might have been expended, and honeftly too, on other fhips, which on an emergency might have been fitted out in a much shorter time than that fingle fhip could have been repaired. He called upon the naval agents in the House, to turn this matter in their thoughts, and communicate their opinions to the House.

Admiral Sir Thomas Frankland rofe next; he complained of the want of discipline that prevailed thoughout the navy, from the entrusting boys with commands. He hoped the copper fheathing was to be taken off the men of war's bottoms, elfe we should not have a fhip fit for any service.

Com