The United States is a vast dumping ground for foreign guns. Gun dealers in other countries, knowing America's lusty history in the possession and use of guns, find a big market here. Many weapons, some of them obsolete military guns are bought for practically nothing in Europe, shipped here and sold at low prices-but still high enough to make a profit for everyone handling them.

Some are shipped here with plugged barrels and minus firing pins, and thus apparently unfit for use as weapons. But many of them can be made operable quickly.

Very little information is required of persons wishing to order guns by mail. A child may obtain one by listing his name and address. Where the age is required on the order form, he may list himself as an adult.

Opponents of tighter gun laws include such groups as the National Rifle Association, sportsmen's clubs, and some small arms and ammunition makers.

Nevertheless, there is growing sentiment for Federal regulations for the sale and use of firearms.

Any such legislation would have to skirt the issue of the right to bear arms guaranteed by the Bill of Rights.

IT'S NOT EASY TO GET A PERMIT TO CARRY A PISTOL IN INDIANA

Carrying a gun ( pistol) in this State is a privilege not easily acquired. Only 15,626 persons in Indiana last year had the State-issued permits to carry handguns. An estimated 75 percent of the permitholders got them for target shooting or hunting only.

Obtaining a permit is difficult because authorities feel that carrying a gun is a dangerous practice both to the pistol packer and to others.

The Indiana State Police is the issuing agency for gun permits, under the 1935 Firearms Act, as amended. Judges of circuit, superior, and criminal courts at first issued the permits.

A permit must be obtained to carry any gun with a barrel of less than 12 inches in length in any place other than the person's home or place of business.

Before State police issue a permit, it is recommended to do so by a local police agency-police or sheriff's department or town marshal.

Local authorities aren't supposed to recommend gun permits to just anyone, or for just any reason.

The local agency is supposed to make a thorough check of each applicant, making certain that he (or she) has no police record, is a stable, law-abiding, sober citizen, and has good reason for wanting to carry a gun.

Purposes for which permits are issued are three: Hunting or target shooting, occupation (private detective, merchant, policeman, or guard), and personal protection.

A person getting a permit for the first two purposes is to carry the gun only while engaged in those activities. A person getting a permit for protection purposes may have the gun on him 24 hours a day. This is the one that's hard to come by.

State police may turn down an application—even though it's approved by local police because of faulty information, concealing a police record or for technical

reasons.

If the permit is isued, it costs $1, in certified check or money order (no bouncing check takers, these).

State police last year turned down, for one reason or another, 2,468 applications for permits sent to them.

Many requests never get to the State level.

Indianapolis police run an exhaustive investigation on every request submitted them—if Chief Reilly OK's the initial application. He may find, and often does, there is no sound reason for the requested permit.

All kinds of reasons are given for wanting permits to carry guns: Late working hours, extensive travel, bad neighborhoods, carrying money, threats on life, and others.

If Reilly thinks the request is valid, he turns the request over to the internal security branch, headed by Capt. C. R. Caine.

The gun to be carried then must be brought to police for registration and a ballistics test in the police laboratory. A long, comprehensive form is then filled out. The investigation follows:

Personal and employment references are checked. A check on police record is made (persons with records of "crimes of violence" may not get gun permits). Neighbors may also be questioned. Information obtained during the investigation may rule out issuance of the permit.

Indianapolis police last year approved 520 applications for gun permits. Nearly 300 for renewals. No records were available on the number of permits refused.

The sheriff's department runs a similar investigation. That department says it has no records on permits recommended last year.

Obtaining a gun permit may take up to 2 months, from time of initial application to issuance of the permit.

INDIANA GUN SALES REGULATIONS ARE TOUGHER THAN MOST STATES Indiana's regulations of gun sales are tougher than those of many States, but are no real deterrent to any fanatic wishing to buy a pistol through a local dealer.

There are no restrictions at all on the sale of rifles and shotguns. Laws cover only those weapons with barrels less than 12 inches long.

Restrictions on over-the-counter handgun sales are, briefly: purchaser must be at least 18 years of age and of sound mind; he must not be a drug addict or habitual drunkard, and he must not have been convicted of a "crime of violence” (murder, voluntary manslaughter, kidnaping, kidnaping for the purchase of ransom, rape in the first degree, malicious mayhem, assault or assault and battery with intent to commit a felony, robbery, bank robbery, automobile banditry, and burglary in the first or second degree).

The regulations, part of the 1965 Firearms Act, apply to sales made by all retail stores and pawnshops. The law doesn't cover transfer of pistois among individuals.

Last year there were 14.564 sales-and therefore registrations of guns reported in Indiana. There'll be that many or more this year, State police records indicate.

Indiana's gun sales law is designed to prevent sales of pistols to undesirables by disclosure of information on purchasers of such weapons.

Sale of a gun through a State-licensed gun dealer is not to be consummated until 48 hours after the initial sales contact-to give local police a chance to check the purchaser's background.

On the sales form, the purchaser is required to furnish identification and various personal data and to certify that he has been convicted of no crimes of violence. A copy of the form is forwarded to State police.

There's room on the back of the application for purchase of a pistol for fingerprints of the purchaser, but dealers aren't required to obtain such prints. Such prints could aid police in making positive identification of the purchaser.

The sales form does effect registration of the gun being sold.

Also required information on the sales form is the date of sale, caliber, make, model, and manufacturer's number of the weapon. So both local and State police obtain this information on such gun sales.

The sales section of the Firearms Act does not apply to the sale of antique pistols unsuitable for use as firearms.

Violation of any of the provisions of the act constitutes a felony punishable by a fine of not more than $1,000 or by imprisonment of 1 to 10 years.

A PHILOSOPHY

(By Frank Weirich)

Man has found it necessary since time began to defend himself against the forces of nature as well as from his enemies both human and animal.

There was a time when he used his bare hands, then he threw rocks. Later he devised a sharp stick which he flung through the air from a taut string. His ultimate weapon was an explosive force which would hurl a solid object in a straight line.

When the Pilgrims landed at Plymouth Rock they waded ashore with breastplates and long muskets and a feeling of security. They founded a new nation based on religious and political freedom while their muskets were leaning against a tree stump a few feet away-just in case.

Descendants of those Pilgrims rely on the same philosophy today but on a more highly technical basis. Our muskets are Minutemen standing tall and straight in underground silos around the Nation. The rifles and pistols in gunracks of homes everywhere are symbols of that readiness to defend freedom at all costs. There is no doubt that weapons fall into the hands of undesirables for the purpose of wanton destruction of life and confiscation of property. That is why many States and local communities have set forth regulations covering the registration and ownership of rifles and pistols.

Anyone with a legitimate reason for possessing a gun can, by due process of law, own and use such a weapon. Those regulations are merely a byproduct of the defensive measures for which the gun itself was originally intended.

Senator CANNON. Thank you, Senator Bayh, for that helpful statement.

In your opinion, would further Federal legislation be necessary if the States enacted adequate legislation which would implement the Federal Firearms Act?"

Senator BAYH. I would prefer to see a sufficiently well constructed uniform firearms law adopted by all of our States to tackle this problem. But I would like to point out that the main-in fact the total thrust of this bill-is designed to prevent mail-order distribution, interstate transshipment, interstate commerce. And it would be difficult and impossible, really for the States to deal with this interstate shipment.

Also, it would be rather unrealistic in the light of what we know about our States reluctance to move in some areas. I think we expect them to adopt the proper type of legislation that would be needed to control these firearms sufficiently.

Senator CANNON. If the States require licensing, then the shipment would already be a crime under the Federal act if it were shipped to a person who did not have a license.

Senator BAYH. Yes, sir. This would not prevent them from getting the weapon, however, as our bill really does not prevent them from getting the weapon. What it does do is to let the local police agency know what is happening, so that then they can take the proper safeguards, make the proper checks.

Senator Dodd pointed out, I think in response to Senator Hart's question-I didn't hear it completely-something about would this prevent hardened criminals from getting weapons.

Frankly, I don't suppose there is a law on the books that is 100percent perfect. A man or a woman who is a hardened criminal knows the arts-if I may use that word, perhaps inappropriatelyand has the skills necessary to obtain a deadly weapon.

What I am particularly concerned at, and what it seems to me this bill will accomplish, is the wholesale proliferation of these weapons throughout our country.

We have many juvenile delinquents; let's not say "juvenile delinquents." We have many juveniles. We have many mentally ill individuals who are going to perhaps act in a way which is not totally accepted by society. This act will just be a minor offense. But you let them have access to a mail-order weapon and they get involved in a relatively small scrape and someone is shot, then it is a felony, a murder. It not only wreaks havoc on the individual who is murdered, it ruins the individuals who perpetrate this act.

Senator CANNON. Do you think that further Federal legislation is justified simply because the States refuse to act?

Senator BAYH. I think it is; yes, sir. I do,

I think it is. In fact, it is difficult for me to see, sir, how the States can effectively put a check on the interstate shipment of these weapons. They can say it is a violation of the law to possess them, but that doesn't prevent an individual from purchasing one of these through the mail order and the State police involved or the local police involved would not know anything about it until the crime had been committed, or the unfortunate incident had been brought to light.

Senator CANNON. The first part of your statement is not entirely correct, though, because section 2(c) of the Federal Firearms Act makes it unlawful for the manufacturer or dealer to transport or ship any firearm in interstate or foreign commerce to any person other than a licensed manufacturer or a dealer in any State the law of which requires that a license be obtained for the purchase.

So if the State law requires a license for the purchase of a firearm, then it is already an offense at the present time and involves a 5-year penalty to the manufacturer.

Senator BAYH. If the State involved implemented that specific type of requirement into law, it would be all right. You are absolutely right. But I am not confident that our States are ready to take this type of action. At least, not all of them.

Senator CANNON. Of course, all of them have not taken it. We know that. I was just trying to get your views as to whether you think the responsibility lies with the Federal Government or if actually the responsibility is the responsibility of the States.

Some States have tried to take action. For example, the State of New York has an extremely tight law. Yet, Senator Dodd pointed out that for this year they have had 266 murders or injuries with mailorder weapons since the 1st of January 1963. And New York has a very, very tight law, the Sullivan law.

Senator BAYH. Which, I might say, seems to indicate that the State law is not sufficient to solve that problem, then, because New York, as you say, does have a very strict law.

I just think I know there is a wide divergence of opinion on this I do not feel the States will act in this area sufficiently to cope with this problem. I wish they would.

Senator CANNON. Do you think that the National Firearms Act could be tightened up?

Senator BAYH. Perhaps it could. I see no reason-I am certainly not speaking for Senator Dodd; I speak for myself, let me put it that way. I have no particular pride in cosponsorship as long as this loophole is plugged.

It seems to me that if we are going to plug the loophole as far as easy access to mail-order guns, whether we do it in a separate bill or if we strengthen the Federal Firearms Act, is going to take roughly the same provisions.

I am happy, I am glad the committee is looking into this. I hope you will come up with a better idea than ours. But I think there is a problem there.

Senator CANNON. In your testimony I think you referred to some of the gadget-type and machine-type weapons. I believe it was the machinegun-type that was in New Jersey. The National Firearms. Act already prohibits that type of thing. So you see it is against the Federal law now in any way, shape, or form to transfer, as a practical matter, the ownership of a machinegun.

Senator BAYH. What happens is that these people are very shrewd. They bring these weapons into the country and tranship many of them as junk. In fact, on some occasions the barrel of these weapons would have a small weld or a small bead of weld in them that for all intents and purposes, according to the national firearms law, it enables them to circumvent the provisions of it. But just one little tap of the chisel or reassembly of this so-called junk and you have a lethal weapon. This is being done.

Senator CANNON. How would this bill help that sort of a situation over and beyond what the law now provides?

Senator BAYH. It would require, I think, that even before, as far as I am concerned this type of junk would be transshipped in the mails, that the police would have to be notified of the contents thereof. Senator CANNON. Senator Monroney?

Senator MONRONEY. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Bayh, I appreciate very much your testimony and the objective that you are seeking to obtain.

I was going through the testimony, which I unfortunately missed, of Senator Dodd, having been in another committee.

Is there any way to prevent, or is there any unlawful act that would be committed by a criminal or a juvenile in getting a friend to order the gun and then paying him for the gun after its arrival? It seems to me this would be completely permissible under the bill.