it passed. You have sat at the hearings and you have heard respon· sible witnesses and I can't see a need for further hesitation and delay.

I have heard it suggested that perhaps we should wait and see if we can't get a uniform firearms act in the 50 States. This would be highly desirable, but you may have to wait a very long time to get it done and I think we ought to move toward that objective, but I think the situation in this country calls for some action now. And here is a simple, moderate, and reasonable proposal which will give us some means of cutting down this traffic in these guns to mentally deranged, to criminals, to juveniles, who really should not be handling this type of weapon. Here is a measure that will help us to cut down on the murders across this country.

In Los Angeles over the weekend, there were two more. In Pittsburgh, this letter received on Monday indicates two more. We ought to be able to do something to cut this down and all of these law enforcement people think this will help. So I make this final plea to the committee to give this bill favorable consideration.

Senator CANNON. Senator Dodd, we appreciate your appearing here at this time to testify further with respect to your bill, and giving the committee the benefit of your present thinking and present views. I, as acting chairman, regret that there is a great deal of misinformation being sponsored by some group or groups throughout the country in connection with the proposals that you have advanced to the committee.

Of

I have an example before me now-a newspaper article which starts off as follows: "The infamous Dodd bill, aimed at registering firearms, began slowly sinking into never-never land this week." course, it does not and has never required registration. As you have pointed out so well, there is much misinformation put out about this bill.

I would like to say that there are some very responsible groups, people who deal in firearms every day, who support your bill because they understand it. They are not misled by inaccurate publicity. I want to assure you the committee is going to consider it very thoroughly. As we stated initially, we do not intend to be stampeded into action on the bill. We expect to give it objective, responsible attention and then decide as a committee what legislation, if any, should be recommended to the Congress.

Senator Hart, do you have any questions?

Senator HART. Mr. Chairman, I think you stated very fully and well the attitude of each of us on the committee. I sympathize with Senator Dodd, too. I have read some things about him that would singe the hair of even an insensitive man.

Senator DODD. I have been particularly concerned because I think there has been a studied effort to have it appear that the National Rifle Association is opposed. As a matter of fact, I have even received mail from members of that organization who apparently got this impression some way or another. That just is not so. And I worked rather closely with the NRA when I originally drew up this bill. We were in consultation all of the time with the NRA, because I felt and I feel now this is a very responsible organization in this country. Mr. Franklin Orth is here, and I asked if he could be here today in case you wanted him to tell you what the attitude of his organization is about this matter.

Senator CANNON. Mr. Orth has testified before the committee. Unless he has something new to add, I think he has made very clear the position of that organization.

Mr. Orth, if you have anything further to add, we would be happy to hear from you. The position of the organization is rather clear in my mind.

Mr. ORTH. Senator, the position of the organization, its elected officers and officials, has not changed in respect to the Dodd bill. Now obviously in an organization the size of NRA, with 625,000 individual members and some 400,000 members in our affiliated clubs, which represents over a million sportsmen in the United States, there are some individuals among that group who may not agree with the officers and officials. But that does not mean the NRA is not solidly behind what Senator Dodd is trying to do, namely, to stop the criminal, the mentally incompetent, the drug addict, and the habitual drunkard from obtaining arms through the mail, along with the juvenile, who is unsupervised. That is our stand, and we stay with Senator Dodd all of the way in that effort, because we feel that sportsmen in the United States who want to use guns should be able to use them for all reasons, for sporting in the field, shooting in competition, and for personal defense in their home or place of business. These things have not been infringed in the Dodd bill. And we believe therefore that the Dodd bill should be supported.

Senator CANNON. Thank you, Mr. Orth, for reviewing the position of your organization.

Senator Dodd, has your subcommittee issued a report as a result of your previous hearings?

Senator DODD. It has been distributed to the subcommittee members. They haven't finished commenting on it yet.

Senator CANNON. As soon as that is printed, would you be sure to have your staff furnish us with a copy, please?

Senator DODD. Yes, I surely will.

Senator CANNON. Thank you very much for appearing here this morning. We appreciate your views. Mr. Orth, we appreciate you restating the views of your organization.

Senator HART. Mr. Chairman, I do not know whether this is anticipated to be the last meeting or not, is it?

Senator CANNON. It is anticipated this will be the last open hearing. Senator HART. Then, Mr. Chairman, I should like to ask leave to file in the record a statement of position adopted, I understand, but I have not been officially advised, by the State bar in Michigan. My membership in the State bar does not oblige me always to agree with their positions, but I would certainly like to get the position of at least the commissioners and a standing committee of the State bar into the record. I anticipate that it will be available within a matter of a very few days.

Senator CANNON. Very well, if you submit that, it will be made a part of the record.

Senator CANNON. Thank you very much. The hearing will now stand adjourned.

(Thereupon, at 10:10 a.m. the hearing was adjourned.)

APPENDIX

AGENCY COMMENTS

DEPARTMENT OF STATE, Washington, D.C., November 14, 1963.

Hon. WARREN G. MAGNUSON,
Chairman, Committee on Commerce,

U.S. Senate.

DEAR MR, CHAIRMAN: I am writing in reply to your letter of August 8, 1963, requesting the comments of the Department on S. 1975, a bill to amend the Federal Firearms Act.

S. 1975 would amend the first five sections of the Federal Firearms Act for the purpose of restricting the sale of mail-order handguns to juveniles and undesirable adults. While the Department finds no objections to these provisions, it is noted that the Secretary of Treasury, by the terms of the Federal Firearms Act, has responsibility for its administration. It is further noted that section 7 of S. 1975 would add a new section 10 to the Federal Firearms Act to preserve the requirements of section 414 of the Mutual Security Act of 1954, as amended, which are administered by the Secretary of State on delegation from the President.

The Department would have no objection to S. 1975 with the inclusion of section 7 to clarify the individual responsibilities of the Secretaries of the Treasury and State.

The Bureau of the Budget advises that from the standpoint of the administration's program there is no objection to the submission of this report.

If I can be of further assistance to you in this matter, please do not hesitate to let me know.,

DEAR MR. CHAIRMAN: I am writing to the response of your letter of December 2, 1963, requesting the comments of the Department on the amendments intended to be proposed by Senator Dodd to S. 1975 and on S. 2345, both bills to amend the Federal Firearms Act.

The Department advised the committee on November 14, 1963, that it would have no objection to S. 1975 with the inclusion of section 7 to clarify the individual responsibilities of the Secretaries of Treasury and State. The amendments intended to be proposed by Senator Dodd have been reviewed, and the Department finds no reason to alter its position with respect to the bill if amended as proposed.

While the Department would have no objection to the enactment of S. 2345, it would appear that S. 1975, together with the amendments intended to be proposed, would more adequately accomplish the committee's intended objectives. However, this is a matter that could be addressed more appropriately by the Treasury Department which has responsibility for the administration of the Federal Firearms Act.

The Bureau of the Budget advised that, from the standpoint of the administration's program, there is no objection to the submission of this report.

Sincerely yours,

FREDERICK G. DUTTON,
Assistant Secretary
(For the Secretary of State).

DEPARTMENT OF STATE, Washington, January 24, 1964.

Hon. WARREN G. MAGNUSON,
Chairman, Committee on Commerce,
U.S. Senate.

DEAR MR. CHAIRMAN: I am writing in response to your letter of December 13, 1963, requesting the comments of the Department on amendment No. 360 intended to be proposed by Senator Dodd to S. 1975, a bill to amend the Federal Firearms Act.

By letter dated December 9, 1963, the Department transmitted comments relative to amendment No. 335 to S. 1975. The Department has no objection to amendment No. 360 and would request that the views expressed in the December 9, 1963, letter be considered as applying equally to amendment No. 360. The Bureau of the Budget advises that from the standpoint of the administration's program there is no objection to the submission of this report.

Sincerely yours,

FREDERICK G. DUTTON,

Assistant Secretary (For the Secretary of State).

GENERAL COUNSEL,

TREASURY DEPARTMENT,

Washington, November 14, 1963.

Hon. WARREN G. MAGNUSON,

Chairman, Committee on Commerce,
U.S. Senate, Washington, D.C.

DEAR MR. CHAIRMAN: In your letter dated August 8, 1963, to the Secretary of the Treasury, you stated that your committee would be pleased to receive any comments the Treasury Department would care to make on the amendments to the Federal Firearms Act (ch. 18, title 15, United States Code; 52 Stat. 1250) proposed in S. 1975 (88th Cong., 1st sess.).

We understand that this bill is the result of a series of hearings conducted by the Subcommittee on Juvenile Delinquency of the Senate Judiciary Committee. During those hearings the problem of juveniles easily obtaining handguns through so-called mail-order deliveries across State lines was exposed. It appears that the bill is primarily designed to cope with this problem. S. 1975 would accomplish this objective through incorporating specific restrictions on interstate shipments to juveniles of handguns and gangster-type firearms subject to the National Firearms Act (ch. 53, title 26, United States Code). These restrictions would not apply to sporting-type rifles and shotguns.

Basically, these restrictions involve three elements: first, the person who orders the handgun (or gangster-type firearm) must establish his identity to the shipper by submission of a sworn statement attested to by a notary public to the effect that he is 18 years or more of age, that he is not a person prohibited by the act from receiving a firearm in interstate or foreign commerce, and that there are no provisions of law, regulations, or ordinances applicable to the locality to which the handgun or firearm will be shipped which will be violated by his receipt or possession of the handgun or firearm; second, the manufacturer or dealer shipping to a person other than a federally licensed manufacturer or dealer or to a person holding a State license to purchase a firearm, could not ship a handgun (or gangster-type firearm) in interstate or foreign commerce in the absence of the required sworn statement, and the shipper would be required to notify the carier of the contents of the shipment; and third, the common or contract carrier transporting the handgun (or gangstertype firearm) in interstate or foreign commerce would be prohibited from delivering such handgun or firearm to any person with knowledge or with reasonable cause to believe that such person is under 18 years of age.

In addition to the provisions designed to deal with the mail-order traffic in handguns to juveniles, the bill would also amend the Federal Firearms Act in other respects in order to bring the act up to date in the light of problems. which have been experienced in the administration of the act. Detailed comment as to the nature and effect of each of the amendments is contained in a technical explanation of the bill, which is attached hereto.

The other amendments to the act contained in the bill appear to be principally designed to