and I have 8 or 10 Kentucky rifles, it is a pretty hard task to transport them. So many of them are so long they don't fit in the trunk of your car very readily.

So your pistol is the thing that most collectors are most acutely interested in, more than long arms. A few of us like the long arms. Senator CANNON. What would you say to a provision leaving this to the discretion of the Secretary to prescribe? For example, what we define as an antique weapon today may not encompass what might be antique weapons 10 years from now. I am thinking of something along this line, that provision saying "except as the Secretary of the Treasury may prescribe," and leave it to the Secretary of the Treasury, who administers this Federal Firearms Act to prescribe what weapons are included from this.

Mr. JOHNSTON. That raises an item of contention, and under this National Firearms Act, any other weapon. There is a very pronounced bone of contention there of what is "any other weapon.' And, as I understand it, "any other weapon" is not a pistol or revolver, but a machinegun, a shotgun, a rifle that can be concealed on a person. Because pistols and revolvers are specifically exempt. There is a problem there, and administration of that very phase of the law has been vexatious to some collectors.

Senator CANNON. Senator Yarborough?

Senator YARBOROUGH. Of course, the law in itself now exempts curio collectors as defined in the Internal Revenue Code.

Mr. Johnston, did you bring with you any proposed definition that you wanted to put in the bill? There are six classes under section 904. There are six classes of sales that are exempt from the operation of this law. But the definition of "antique" there is very limited under the Internal Revenue Code.

You are an attorney. Did you bring a definition of "antique" that you think should be written into the law? There is a place for it. There are six classes of sales that are exempted from operation of the law in section 904(a) (6), top of page 9 of the bill deals with exemption of antique arms. I take it that definition is too limited in your view.

Mr. JOHNSTON. Yes, sir.

Senator YARBOROUGH. Did you bring a substitute or proposed definition of what an "antique firearm" would be?

Mr. JOHNSTON. In this prepared statement, it is suggested an antique arm be considered that arm which is not capable of using fixed ammunition or cartridge. As you suggested a moment ago, that will step on many collectors' toes.

Senator YARBOROUGH. You mean it would step on the toes of those not exempt.

Mr. JOHNSTON. If you define it as an arm which does not use fixed ammunition, then the gentleman who, let's say, likes Colts, single-action pistols, the Frontiers, and so on, that doesn't exempt him. That doesn't exempt that arm, but it is a collector's item.

Senator YARBOROUGH. A cap-and-ball pistol does not use fixed ammunition.

Mr. JOHNSTON. They don't use fixed ammunition-
Senator YARBOROUGH. They are revolvers.

You could have a revolver fire six shots without using fixed ammunition but cap and ball, where you muzzle load each one of those chambers.

Mr. JOHNSTON. Pour the powder in and put your ball in and put your cap or prime for flintlock ignition, prime the pan, and have a good flint there to ignite your charge.

Senator YARBOROUGH. You have another statement here that a gun manufactured before 1898 is determined an antique gun in some Government circles. Which Government circles is that Internal Revenue or is that the military circles-what circles?

Mr. JOHNSTON. I think that probably concerns the Department of Treasury under the National Firearms Act there. How to define it is a theoretical thing. I want to be brutally frank here and fair in the cause I espouse, but I don't know how I could make a definition that would define what the collector's item is without stepping on the toes of some honorable and militant collector.

Senator YARBOROUGH. Collectors' items are much broader than "antique," though. As you pointed out, you can collect the arms that are made today by the hundreds of thousands of items. You can be a collector there.

"Antique" does have some connotation of age or antiquity or something that was used in a past generation and probably not in use today.

Mr. JOHNSTON. Yes, sir.

Senator YARBOROUGH. There is no such connotation by collectors' items. That is practically everybody under the sun.

Mr. JOHNSTON. Probably we have in our collecting groups, I hate to think what will be said to, of, and about me by my friends as a result of this testimony.

Senator YARBOROUGH. Mr. Johnston, I can say that as a former practicing attorney and former collector in some fields of America, if you expect to continue your collecting, I recommend that you not get into the Congress of the United States. You wouldn't have time to fire one of those.

Mr. JOHNSTON. I used to be employed in the House of Representatives when I was a student in law school. That was some years ago; I dislike to remember how long.

Senator CANNON. Senator McGee, do you have any questions?

Senator MCGEE. I only want to say to Mr. Johnston, I think one of the recommendations I would hope he would make as the official of this group is that we ought to drop the word "antique." That misleads too many people, and I would hope as a lawyer you would come up with a synonym. I sometimes pull back because lawyers intend to invent jargon that bamboozles the rest of us, but

Senator CANNON. I want to point out that you are outnumbered 3 to 1.

Senator McGEE. But I do think there is a better word than "antique" that says more for what your group really stands for, and I think it ought to be looked at very seriously.

Mr. JOHNSTON. The words "collector's arms" would suit me perfectly.

Senator MCGEE. That would cover everything from what is produced tomorrow morning clear back.

Mr. JOHNSTON. Very definitely.

Senator MCGEE. I think that would be a more satisfactory term. My real misgiving on this, Mr. Chairman

bSenator CANNON, If the Senator will yield you say that there are probably a lot of fellows in this country today thaw that there are classified as "collectors." [Laughter,imi gred till boon 8 978 Senator Senator MCGEE But t they to collect have collected and they aren't paying anyway and already are going dues in your organization. They are not about to and they are not about to abide by the

tion under this law or a other law, and that leads any The registraleads me to the expression of ma misgivings about this approach; I TEKнOL 114 I that there are some people under the the illusion that the approach legislatively of this order is going to produce miracles, that we are somehow going to legislate human behavior or legislate human selfishness out of existence, and mall we are going to and in the process do is penalize those thousands, or in many cases millions of legitimate

Aans who will alone suffer from the consequences of this type

I

of legislation without getting at those few derelicts or lawbreakers that we are really concerned about in the wake of the tragedy......... would hope that our emotionalism does not lead us for yo to some either disruptive or otherwise of collectors wise ene otherwise encroaching impingements on the freedom of both collectors and sportsmen as groups. I am not sure that we yet are aiming in the right direction at the right people.

are

bery

Mr. JOHNSTON. I like to think about thestrictive laws that there in line with what you .have said, sir. I like to think of the are in New York, the Sullivan law, and its sundry amendments. The yery very thing that they have sought to accomplish in New York could accomplished by legislation, no one in New York would get injured by a gun. I will if up New York 70 70 morning you will see improper and illegal so can trace them. Senator CANNON Mr. Johnston, we heard about a case yesterday a man was convicted under the Sullivan

Pod none of them being residents of the

before this committee, law for using a paintbrush in an altercation in New York. a e mantras convicted Mr. JOHNSTON. I am not familiar with all that, but I do know that strange results happen and hot only that, that the very thing that they seek to prohibit is not prohibited.

714 Senator MCGEE. I think we could even agree that if it would inhibit them a little bit, if it would make more difficult in any measurable way, some would be willing to consider it very carefully in whatever small gain it might represent, but I prieve they have demonstrated up to now to my satisfaction that t this is gomg to inhibit anybody. It is simply going to introduce some new 4507 ly going to introduce some new and devious routes foward getting the things they want in order to perpetrate the deed that they have already determined upon018 31197:11 61 01199 DSSTNT am in accord entirely with what you say. May I illustrate it this way. I have in my hobby workshop a wreckuse open a

bar a little wrecking bar I want to hobby works tha

e. Now, it is a perfectly legitimate object and it has a perfectly legitimate purpose, but if I take that with me and go over to my neighbor's sometime during the nighttime and use that to jimmy his window to get in his house, it becomes someis the car to way in his it becomes some thing else. And it is the same way with firearms. They have a proper use and there are just innumerable people that have Reen that, shall I say, black sheep or the bad dog in the litter. I don't know how that gentleman, if I may call him' a gentleman, can ever be inhibited from

enjoy and use them properly, but there is always

using an ordinary and a proper and an dan, honorable article, namely a gun, for improper purposes.

Senator MCGEE. What it comes down to again is that guns, don't kill people; people kill people,о IT нOTHY TONSZ Mr. JOHNSTON, I agree with you board et semiz zon Senator MCGEE. And I am afraid, we are jumping that gap there sometimes as we approach this problem. и Mг. JOHNSTON, The gun is inest and can't be activated until some, shall I say, nut, behind the bubba vates it. As a problem, to reiterate, to define my stand here so that it will field of the collectors. I I am very frank to say to you, how I can do it, except to say a collector's item." And Senator Cannon says many criminals would like to be termed collectors: You see, it has its pros and its consel soni ba

know

301151312

Senator MCGEE. They are the cons. Laughter. has 99immo Senator CANNON. Do you have any questions, Senator Hart? Senator HART. Just this: Mr. Johnston, I did not quite understand or at least I would appreciate your summarizing again † your reaction to our chairman's suggestion, that the Secretary be authorized to attempt to respond to the problem and concern that you have without Congress undertaking, with or without lawyers, to, clarify what you mean beyond authorizing the right to write a regulation91812 sutures of alarmon abiotine tubos of noit Mr. JOHNSTON. I am not certain in my own mind, where the enforcement of this legislation would be, if it is enacted, or what field of the Government would have the enforcement. Secretary of Commerce i en flow - artit to nobenego quiimpor noit godt es Senator CANNON Treasury, if I lomuos bogofis right, not -} Mr. Johnston, Secretary of the Treasury? Well, there have been some problems in that field by an interpretation placed by the Alcohol and Tobacco Tax Unit on a certain arm as being a registerable arm under the National Firearms Act which, in all sincerity, the particular collector involved, does not believe it to be and many collectors don't believe it to be mitilog to approqque god of aulay sero, to to understand that those who are interested in enforcement are just as sincere that it should be an arm under that act, now, to give an arbitrary authority to a k

seems to to a bureau to determine what the rules are, it

me w with some, lack of reasonableness on the part of that bureau, creates very sincere problems, so far as, collectors and the honorable users of firearms might want to meet with. It would occur to me that a definition without discretion might be more desirable odw ammonit Egyolqmo 978ıl boylózai zlanimiro, 941 Senator HART. You have already cautioned us, however we define it, we will have outraged collectors, convinced that they too should have been excluded, but aren't within any definition we have managed to talk about here this morning 297oiled goinsjoozen ghiT bozlozui Mr. JOHNSTON. I am absolutely convinced of that, Mr, Hart, absolutely convinced of that. eure quiltin Senator HART Thank you, Mr. Chairman. to enter at on [Senator GANNON, Thank you very much, Mr. Johnston, for being here with us and giving us your views. 719ylish routes eartest The next witness being from the great State of Texas, I am going to call a 3-minute recess at the moment and ask Senator Yarborough yusb uns #st-b99 1991 8s ei móituíoz eti tuult--zeiza

94

to preside then in my absence, while I attend another committee meeting. (Recess.)

Senator YARBOROUGH. The committee will resume in session. The next witness is Mr. Raymond L. Sargent, Texas State Rifle Association. Mr. Sargent, proceed in your own manner.

STATEMENT OF RAYMOND L. SARGENT, LEGISLATIVE CHAIRMAN, TEXAS STATE RIFLE ASSOCIATION, HOUSTON, TEX.

Mr. SARGENT. Thank you, Senator. I am Raymond L. Sargent, a geophysicist by profession. My business is in Houston, Tex. My home is at Sugar Land, Tex. I am the past president of the Texas State Rifle Association and, since 1957, chairman of its legislative committee, and it is as legislative chairman that I make this

statement.

Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, the Texas State Rifle Association is a statewide organization of sportsmen from all walks of life and draws most of its members from the over 40,000 NRA members who reside in the State of Texas.

The Texas State Rifle Association was organized in 1919 for the purpose of encouraging rifle and pistol shooting as a form of recreation, to conduct statewide contests to determine statewide rifle and pistol champions, to teach safe gun techniques and thereby contribute to the national defense, and to oppose unwise firearms legislation. The Texas State Rifle Association has steadfastly opposed legislation requiring registration of firearms as well as the permit system for their alleged control. Feeling that there is ample evidence to prove that such legislation is subject to abuse by enforcement officials, law-abiding citizens are discouraged from owning and using firearms, and such laws are generally ignored by persons employing firearms in the commission of crimes.

Further, the identification of all firearms and their owners would be of great value to those supporters of political philosophies who have predicted and are working for the overthrow of our present form of Government.

The Texas State Rifle Association is opposed to any legislation pertaining to firearms, the enactment of which will give any aid or comfort to any enemy of the United States.

This association recognizes that crime throughout the United States has been increasing for quite some time, and it is alleged that some of the criminals involved have employed firearms which have been ordered by mail.

However, we recognize that no statistical proof has as yet been offered regarding the degree to which firearms ordered by mail are involved. This association believes the number of rifles and shotguns ordered by mail and used in the commission of crimes may well be a trifling figure.

It is not the means of firearms delivery, mail or any other method, that should be the object of legislation but, rather, the misuse of the firearms after delivery.

This association feels few committees of Congress have had the opportunity that is presented to this committee. That a problem exists that its solution is an urgent need-few can deny.