activity. If there is a thrust to this bill, it seems to me it is directed toward the unlawful act; that is, not permitting juveniles to get the guns and to be used for unlawful purposes. I think that is where the issue first goes in Senator Dodd's bill, and secondly, to try, if there is some method of doing so, to prohibit convicted felons and persons of that kind from getting weapons that could be used for unlawful purposes.

Mr. PORTER. Of course National Rifle Association, and certainly the national board takes the position that we do not condone the illegal use of weapons for unlawful purposes. This question of training to a certain extent does touch on that. It is a preventive and corrective type of approach to the problem, rather than a preventive type. Admittedly it will take a long period of time to cover the educational aspect of it, but in the long run if it is done and done properly, I think it tends to eliminate this other issue that we are continually plagued with.

As many of us older people here realize, that when you get into the question of bank robberies and things of that sort on which some of the statistics have been indicated, a good many of those bank robberies do not occur if the perpetrators understand when they go into a given area they are likely to get shot at. It is like the old saying, that there wouldn't be so many duck hunters if the ducks could shoot back. That still has its practical application, and we think that lawabiding citizens should not only have the right to have the weapons, but that they ought to also be instructed in the safe and competent handling of them.

Senator CANNON. Your position, as I understand it, is that Federal laws should not be substituted for State laws, and weapons control is actually a responsibility of the State.

Mr. PORTER. Yes, sir.

Senator CANNON. If the States fail to carry out that responsibility, that would not necessarily justify Federal law?

Mr. PORTER. Senator, I believe that you can legitimately get into the field of concealables, if you ultimately judge that there is some necessity for legislation. That may be a hard decision. It is actually a hard decision for me to-I differ slightly from the colleagues that have appeared here before. But in my judgment, the line of demarcation, not only from a constitutional but from a policing standpoint, is at the concealable as against nonconcealable point of view. I think if you pass legislation here which covers nonconcealables, it is entirely possible that you may be in difficulty.

The CHAIRMAN. I have no further questions.

Senator CANNON. The next witness is Mr. Woodson D. Scott, lawyer, of Lord, Day & Lord, attorneys at law, New York. We are happy to have you. You may proceed.

STATEMENT OF WOODSON D. SCOTT, LAWYER, LORD, DAY & LORD, ATTORNEYS AT LAW, NEW YORK, N.Y.

Mr. Scorr. Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, my name is Woodson D. Scott. I am a resident of New York City and am a practicing lawyer with the firm, Lord, Day & Lord, corporate law and international law,

I am a member of the bar of New York and of Kentucky. I am a member of the American Bar Association, New York State Bar Asso

ciation, the Association of the Bar of the City of New York, the New York County Lawyers Association, Federal Bar Association of New York, New Jersey & Connecticut, the Association of Interstate Commerce Practitioners, and I am a member of the National Lawyers Club in the District of Columbia.

My home is at No. 1 Stuyvesant Oval, New York City; my office is at No. 25 Broadway, New York City, where I went from Columbia Law School in 1928 and have been continuously, except during absence in the military service in World War II. I have a wife and three children, ages 7, 15, and 17, all of whom are life members of the National Rifle Association; and consequently I believe I have as much interest in public safety and the future of this country as anybody you could find.

I am an endowment member and a director of the National Rifle Association and a member of the committee on firearms legislation. I am a life member of the New York State Rifle & Pistol Association and a director in charge of legislation for the association.

I am a member of the Roslyn Club in New York, the Teaneck and Big-T Clubs in New Jersey, and the State associations of New Jersey, Maryland, the District of Columbia, Pennsylvania, Ohio, and Florida.

I have been handling and using firearms all my life as a civilian and in the military service, in training, in the field, and in combat operations.

I appreciate the opportunity to appear here today before this committee to oppose the enactment of restrictive firearms legislation which would impose an unnecessary burden upon the several million lawabiding citizens of this country who own and use firearms for lawful purposes; including security, hunting, target shooting, and other recreational purposes.

I am opposed to the enactment of any general registration law for firearms and the hardships and injustices which would result from it. The only possible excuse for such statutory interference with the ownership and possession of private property would be that under the police power it is necessary to prevent crime and preserve good order. There is no acceptable evidence of such necessity. We look in vain for evidence that any general registration law would assist in the prevention and detection of crimes of violence.

We all are aware that the criminal would not register firearms and would not accept the restrictions of this or any other law which would frustrate his unlawful purpose. The good citizens of this country who own and use guns for lawful purposes are the people who would suffer from the hardships and injustices of a law requiring the registration of firearms.

I assume that whatever consideration is being given to the proposal of a registration law would be for a Federal law applicable throughout the country. I suggest that it is not the proper function of the Congress to enact such a law. Whatever regulation is required would, in my opinion, properly come under the police power of the several States. In this connection, I quote from a letter of John Edgar Hoover, Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, dated June 1, 1963, to all law-enforcement officials in which he states:

No one blanket proposal or universal regulation will meet the needs and requirements of all communities. The numerous facets and ramifications of gun control are so varied and complex that regulatory measures must be at State and local levels. It is only at these levels that effective enforcement efforts can be undertaken.

I would infer from that statement that Mr. Hoover had in mind the police power reserved to the States and not the delegated powers concerning taxes and interstate and foreign commerce delegated to the Federal Government under the Constitution. I will add also the suggestion that the exercise of the regulatory power by any of the States supersedes any supposed right of municipalities; and consequently it is my suggestion that the only place where such restrictive laws may properly be considered is in the legislatures of the States under the police power reserved to the States."

The second amendment of the Constitution of the United States guarantees to the people the right to keep and bear arms. The substance of that amendment has been incorporated into the law of the States by provisions in the State constitutions and statutes. The 14th amendment denies to any State the power to abridge the privileges and immunities of citizens or take their property without due process of law. In my opinion, that amendment protects the traditional rights of citizens under the Bill of Rights, which includes the right to keep and bear arms. In the light of this analysis, even the legislatures of the States should not enact any restrictive legislation except where necessary under the police power reserved to the States.

I suggest that the exercise of any such power should properly be limited to the use of firearms for unlawful purposes and should not extend to acquisition, ownership, or possession of firearms by citizens of good repute. The right to acquire, own and possess firearms should remain inviolate as the traditional right of the citizen guaranteed by the Bill of Rights as stated in the 2d amendment of the U.S. Constitution and reflected in the constitutions and statutes of the several States and proteced by the 14th amendment of the U.S. Constitution.

This view leaves ample power to the States to pass, administer, and enforce such laws as are necessary and proper to prevent the unlawful uses of firearms and this within the framework of the Constitution and the traditions of the American form of government. A general registration law enacted by the Congress would be of doubtful legal validity, costly and cumbersome in administration and ineffective in the prevention and detection of crime.

We may reasonably assume that if such a law were enacted, the good citizens of the country would feel compelled to register their guns or give up their guns. The first would be costly, inconvenient and of no real benefit; the second would be a national calamity as the effect would be to disarm many law-abiding citizens without accomplishing any useful purpose.

In addition, we may reasonably assume that none of the criminals who would commit crimes of violence would appear at a government office and register the guns with which they would commit such crimes.

On the basis of assumption, which I believe is reasonable, the guns owned or used by the criminal element would never be registered under any general law calling for registration of all guns within a specified time.

It would be natural for you to ask me at this time why so many of the good citizens of this country should so seriously object to the registration of firearms. I shall be glad to answer that question.

In the first place, the law-abiding citizen and gun owner is convinced that no good can be accomplished by the registration of firearms and that he should be spared the expense, trouble, and inconvenience of it. Wherever registration laws are passed, sooner or later a fee is imposed.

For example, the fee in New York City now is $20 plus four photographs which usually cost $2.06. An annual renewal is required at a cost of $10, plus $2.06 for photographs. A person desiring to file an application must first go to the police precinct in which he lives and make known his intention to obtain a permit. Before registration can be obtained, an application must be filed and applicants are discouraged to the point where few people feel that there is any chance for them to obtain a permit. Only a few with the best reasons ever get by the desk sergeant to obtain the necessary forms with which to file an application.

These applications differ from time to time and contain many questions such as the following which must be answered "Yes" or "No": Have you ever served in the Armed Forces of this or any other country? If "Yes," give dates of service and type of discharge received.

Have you ever suffered from any physical defect or sickness which would interfere with or handicap you in the handling of a pistol or revolver?

Has any license or permit, issued by any city, State, or Federal agency, ever been denied to you or to any corporation or partnership of which you were an officer, director, or partner? Has any such ever been revoked, canceled, or suspended?

Have you ever been arrested, summoned, or indicted?

Have you, or any corporation or partnership of which you were an officer, director, or partner, ever possessed a license or permit issued by the police department?

Have you ever used narcotics?

Do you now use narcotics?

The applications for renewal include the following questions, which must be answered "Yes" or "No":

Since the issuance of your current pistol license have you—

A. Been arrested, indicted, summonsed, or convicted for any crime or offense, in any jurisdiction, Federal, State, or local?

B. Or any corporation or partnership of which you are an officer, director, or partner, been denied any city, State, or Federal Government license or permit, or has any such been revoked, cancelled, or suspended?

C. Been discharged from any employment?

D. Been denied a civil service position (city, State, or Federal)?

E. Used narcotics, barbiturates, or suffered from any mental disorder?

F. Suffered from any serious physical defect or sickness?

G. Been issued any other city, State, or Federal license?

Those are the types of questions, even though the answer is favorable, people don't like to sit around and answer questions of that kind. If any of those questions are answered "Yes," a supplementary statement must be filed with details. Also, three persons must be listed as "character vouchers" who will vouch for the applicant and are available for interviews. The form of the voucher affidavit contains 17 numbered questions to be answered by the applicant and questions 18 to 38, inclusive, to be answered by the voucher and be sworn to by the voucher before a notary public.

I have one of the voucher forms which I will show you and you will observe the type of information it requires.

(The above-mentioned form follows:)

LD. 80c (Rev. 10/58)
PCT.

PCT. SERIAL No.

POLICE DEPARTMENT-CITY OF NEW YORK
DIVISION OF LICENSES
VOUCHER AFFIDAVIT

NAME OF APPLICANT FOR PISTOL LICENSE.

NOTE: ANY FALSE STATEMENT IN THIS AFFIDAVIT WILL SUBJECT AFFIANT TO A PROSECUTION FOR PERJURY.
Read and answer every question carefully, giving full details. PRINT or TYPEWRITE all but signature.

1. What is voucher's full name?.

2. List any variations in spelling or any other name used ·

3. Marital status?.

4. If female, give maiden name:

5. In chronological order, state each and every place at which you have resided for the past five years; including present address: FROM

ΤΟ

RESIDENCE

PRECINCT

If alien, give alien registration number:.

LIST YOUR PRESENT OCCUPATION AND EMPLOYMENT FOR PAST FIVE YEARS

12. Were you ever arrested, indicted or convicted, for any crime or offense, in any jurisdiction, federal, state or lucal? If yes, list the following information:

Date

Violation
Actual Charge

LOCATION

Charge
Reduced to

Court Disposition
or Sentence

13. Are you now or have you ever been a member of an organization listed as subversive by the Attorney General of the United States? YES NO

14. Have you ever had any license or permit of any kind, suspended, denied or revoked by any agency, federal, state or local? YES NO Give details.

15. Have you ever served in the armed forces of this or any other country? YES received

NO If yes, give dates of service and type of discharge

16. Have you ever been the subject of military disciplinary action? YES NO

17. If you received a discharge other than honorable, explain fully.