U.S. DISTRict Court, SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS, Houston, Tex., August 2, 1967. Senator JAMES O. EASTLAND, Chairman, Committee on the Judiciary, DEAR SENATOR EASTLAND: Mr. William R. Sweeney of the Administrative Office of the United States Courts has forwarded to me your letter to Mr. Olney of July 26, 1967 wherein you request that he communicate your desire that he forward to each of the United States District Judges a copy of H.R. 421, an act to prohibit travel in interstate commerce with the intent to incite a riot, etc., and containing your request that each of the Judges make reply directly to you with regard to any comment or suggestions which would improve the bill or render it more readily enforceable. This communication is in reply thereto. In my judgment the proposed legislation is simple, clear and concise. As I read it, there are two elements to the offense, namely, (a) that the accused traveled in interstate or foreign commerce and used the facilities thereof with the intent to incite a riot, and (b) that thereafter he performs an overt act of the kind and character described. From the press discussing this proposed legislation, I draw the conclusion that it was considered that it would be difficult to prove that the interstate transportation was committed with the necessary intent. Obviously this would normally be subject to proof only by circumstantial evidence. As a means of making the bill more readily enforceable, I invite your attention to the provisions in the statutes dealing with narcotics violations which have made those statutes far more readily enforceable. These are the provisions of §§ 174 and 176(a) of Title 21, U.S.C.A., dealing with the smuggling, transportation, concealment, etc., of heroin and marihuana, respectively. Each of these sections contains a paragraph providing substantially that when the narcotic is shown to have been in the possession of the defendant, "such possession shall be deemed sufficient evidence to authorize conviction, unless the defendant explains his possession to the satisfaction of the jury". This provision is evidentiary in nature and simply permits the jury to attribute certain weight and effect to the fact of possession unless the defendant gives a satisfactory explanation to the contrary. This has been repeatedly upheld by the courts when attacked for unconstitutionality, vagueness and other reasons. By way of analogy I suggest that you might wish to consider a provision substantially to the effect that when it is shown that where a person has performed one of the overt acts specified in (a) of § 2101 (that is, has incited a riot, organized, promoted, encouraged or carried on a riot, etc.) and has within a period of sixty days prior thereto crossed a state line to reach the point of such act, that such evidence be sufficient to authorize conviction unless the defendant explains that his interstate travel was for some innocent purpose to the satisfaction of the jury. I have likewise read in the press that the proposed legislation was criticized as making criminal the interstate travel based purely on the subjective intent of the defendant. I further invite your attention to § 1073 of Title 18 of the Code which makes criminal the act of moving or traveling in interstate commerce with the intent to avoid prosecution or to avoid giving testimony in a criminal proceeding, which, in my judgment, is somewhat analogous to your proposed legislation. I likewise enclose as a matter of possible interest to you a clipping from the Houston Post of August 1, 1967. If the article is accurate, it certainly would tend to show the existence of a seditious organization and conspiracy which sponsored the riots with which the nation recently has been plagued, the perpetrators of which well might be brought to justice under the bill which you propose. Sincerely, BEN C. CONNALLY, U.S. DISTRICT COURT, COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY, Senate Office Building, GENTLEMEN: In response to the letter of Senator Eastland, Chairman of the Judiciary Committee, requesting comments of United States District Judges, I assume that many District Judges, as I do, find it difficult to be objective about a measure that will bring additional problems before them. Many questions will be brought before the court in which prosecution is instituted under the proposed Act, and my first reaction is that the bill be kept in as short, concise and simple a form as possible. To this extent I would not suggest any amendments or additions to the text of the bill as transmitted to us. The principal problem that I foresee is one of proof of intent. This will have to be considered in the same manner as any other offense against the laws of the United States where intent is an element of the offense. I would not favor any amendment which creates a presumption of intent, since these provisions are always troublesome to trial court and jury alike. Except for the above I have no other comment on the bill. Hon. JAMES O. EASTLAND, GERALD J. WEBER. CHAMBERS U.S. DISTRICT JUDGE, MIDDLE DISTRICT OF FLORIDA, Jacksonville, Fla., August 2, 1967. Committee on the Judiciary, U.S. Senate, Washington, D.C. DEAR SENATOR EASTMAN: I have for acknowledgment the memorandum forwarded to all United States District Judges by the Administrative Office of the United States Courts, stating the desire of the Committee on the Judiciary for comment on H.R. 421. I have read H.R. 421 with care, and I seriously question its practicability as legislation which is designed to achieve the announced purpose. Although the objective is laudable, it is my conclusion that this legislation would rarely be used and would probably prove ineffectual if tried. I have no alternative suggestion to make at this time. With every good wish, I am. WILLIAM A. MCRAE, Jr. The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Commissioner, I am going to hear the police chief from Alabama. Other Senators may want to ask you some questions. You will please stay around, sir. Chief Obie C. Thompson, Department of Police, Prattville, Ala. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? Mr. THOMPSON. I do. TESTIMONY OF CHIEF OBIE C. THOMPSON, DEPARTMENT OF PO- Mr. THOMPSON. Mr. Chairman and members of the committee- Mr. THOMPSON. Obie C. Thompson, chief of police, Prattville, Ala. Mr. THOMPSON. Kenneth Hill, assistant chief of police. The CHAIRMAN. Do you have a prepared statement? Mr. THOMPSON. No, sir; I do not. There are a little unusual circumstances, but on the second of this month, there was a lawsuit of $100,000 placed against myself and four other officers, and I could not bring out everything that happened in the case because I wanted to be tried in the courts not through the paper, and I did not bring a statement for that reason. I want to say that I am wholeheartedly for this bill, but I must also say that the States, the cities, if they do not have enough laws that they should have them, because we have the people, the local people as much agitators as some of the outsiders. I am ready to answer any questions that you may have. The CHAIRMAN. How big a town is Prattville? Mr. THOMPSON. Prattville is a growing town. We have grown from 6,000 in 1960 to over 15,000 today. The CHAIRMAN. Where is Prattville? Mr. THOMPSON. Thirteen miles north of Montgomery, the county seat of Autauga County. The CHAIRMAN. What is your racial proportion there, what percent white and what percent colored? Mr. THOMPSON. There is approximately 15 percent colored. Mr. THOMPSON. On June 11, at 4:20 on June 11 I had a call from one of the residents on my off-day that there was a disturbance on the street, and that my men needed some assistance. This is the first we had heard of Stokely Carmichael being in Prattville was when the officers answered this call. The police answered his call that there was some Negroes pointed a gun or aimed a gun at a white person who passed by there and told him to get the hell out of The CHAIRMAN. Speak a little louder. Mr. THOMPSON. They told him to get the hell out of there, that this was black power, said the white people were not to come up in that area any more. He made this call directly to the police department, a fellow by the name of Tucker, Curtis Tucker. On the radio they called this car that I happened to have three men in to answer this call. When they got there The CHAIRMAN. What size is your police force? Mr. THOMPSON. We have 13 officers in all. The CHAIRMAN. Yes, sir. Now, proceed. Mr. THOMPSON. This was a Sunday afternon. And when the men got there anyway this Stokely come out waving his arms, telling about this black power and so forth. So the men got out of the car. I am not trying this case but I just want to bring you up to how it actually happened suddenly, that they rushed these three police officers. The officers stood their ground until they could get help to come in. Stokely was arrested for disorderly conduct and placed in the county jail at this particular time. We thought that everything quieted down. So they The CHAIRMAN. Are you speaking of Stokely Carmichael? The CHAIRMAN. All right. Mr. THOMPSON. I went on back to my residence and got a call a little after 9 p.m. that shooting had started in one of the streets there that the colored people live on. We do not have any what you call Negro sections. It is integrated pretty well all over. So when we got there I found Officer Hill, one of my officers, but his car had been fired upon by presumably shotguns. So he was hurt at the time by being knocked out of the car. He hit the curb and got him out. Another car going in there to assist him was fired upon from several hundred yards the other way. In other words, it was just a plot. The first was a planned affair and the second was a planned affair. So we-I say we, the officers, by this time we had 10 or 11 of my men there, probably 25 State Troopers, we called at Billingsley which is a prison there 15 or 20 miles from home. We placed them where they were first fired upon, they followed a trail that led up to one of the Negro houses, and as the officers approached this house, they were fired on from this house. The CHAIRMAN. By what kind of weapons, do you know? Mr. THOMPSON. This was a shotgun. It was three of the men hurt. A pellet was taken from the temple of one of the officers. The others was shot in the leg, one of the colored officers. We did not fire at anyone. We did not fire at any house. We held our ground and calledI say called. The sheriff and I worked together on this. We called for assistance from the National Guard. At 1:57 a.m. the National Guard was there. Then we proceeded to make charges against 10 other people, some of them from out of State. Senator KENNEDY. Can you tell us how many from out of State? Mr. THOMPSON. I see three in all, one from Meridian, Miss., one from Iron City. Ga. The CHAIRMAN. One from where? Mr. THOMPSON. Iron City, Ga. I believe this is a fictitious name or town. Senator KENNEDY. Your first one was from where? Mr. THOMPSON. Meridian, Miss. Senator KENNEDY. Meridian, Miss. Mr. THOMPSON. Yes, sir. Senator KENNEDY. And where was the second one from? Mr. THOMPSON. He gave it here as Iron City, Ga. Senator KENNEDY. Are they the outside agitators? Mr. THOMPSON. I beg your pardon? Senator KENNEDY. These are the outside agitators? Mr. THOMPSON. They would be; yes, sir, they are charged with inciting to riot, these 10. The cases come up next month. The CHAIRMAN. Where was the next one from? Mr. THOMPSON. One hailed from Atlanta, Ga. Mr. THOMPSON. That was Iron City, Ga. The CHAIRMAN. Iron City, Ga.? Mr. THOMPSON. Yes, that is what they have here. That is the address he gave. The CHAIRMAN. Did Carmichael tell your assistant, Mr. Hill, to "take off the tin badge and I'll take care of you myself"? Mr. THOMPSON. That is his exact words. The CHAIRMAN. What? Mr. THOMPSON. Those are his exact words. The CHAIRMAN. Did he turn to another Negro and say, "Hand me the gun and I'll take care of him."? Mr. THOMPSON. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. And then you found four guns in his automobile? Mr. THOMPSON. We got a search warrant and searched four vehicles and got two guns, one 16-gage and one a 12-gage single-barrel shotgun. The CHAIRMAN. In Atlanta SNCC issued a statement that "There is a great fear that Carmichael's life may be in danger and the community is tense." Is that what happened? Mr. THOMPSON. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. All right. Now tell me then what happened? Mr. THOMPSON. Well, there was 10 arrests made. We did not arrest the young people, the women, or the older people, just the ones in their twenties and males, because as I say the town is growing fast and jail facilities are not what they should be, I will put it that way, to take care of a large group. I have some pictures here that I will leave with you showing the ones that we did arrest, and some pictures of the ones that we did not arrest. The CHAIRMAN. Proceed. Tell me what happened. Mr. THOMPSON. After these were arrested, everything was calm. Of course, they still have meetings at their particular meeting places. Rap Brown came into Prattville. The CHAIRMAN. Was that the day following Carmichael's arrest? Mr. THOMPSON. This would be on the 11th. This would be the 13th. Stokely Carmichael said he was not leaving Prattville until he got his guns back. When Rap Brown showed up and was there when Stokely was released he made a statement, a typed statement, and I will just quote you one paragraph here of what he had to say: The responsibility for what happened this summer in the South rests in large measure upon whatever positive action the Federal government takes with this situation. Lyndon Baines Johnson has been before the Congress concerning crime in the streets which is directed against American black communities. We in SNCC strongly suggest that LBJ should be personally concerned with directing his attention to the lawless whites of Autauqa County since his wife Lady Bird owns one of the largest plantations in this county. The CHAIRMAN. Were any policemen wounded? Mr. THOMPSON. Yes, sir, I have one police officer, a deputy sheriff and one of the handlers of the dogs. The CHAIRMAN. Was there any sniper fire? Mr. THOMPSON. Yes, sir, all of it was on this police car when they were answering. They had a call that there was an automobile the windows being broken and so forth, so they started answering this call. Some 600 yards before they got to this automobile they were fired upon when they were still in motion. That is when the officer lost control of the car. When the other officers came in to answer him they were fired upon on the other side of where the car were. The CHAIRMAN. State whether or not there was a march on Montgomery. Mr. THOMPSON. That I do not know. At this night there wasn't. Mr. THOMPSON. Several years-I am going back a little bit, to show that we are trying to get along with these people. We call ourselves the Autauqa County Improvement Situation, and here is where they |