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Mr. RYAN. No, he didn't.

Mr. ROTH. Does the Rose law firm represent the RTC, the OTS, or the FDIC or any other Federal agency in any matter in litigation at the present time?

Mr. RYAN. I am not sure. I would have to check for the record and submit that.

[The information referred to can be found in the appendix.)

Chairman FLAKE. If the gentleman would suspend for just a minute. I won't stop you, but the witnesses must be informed you do not have to answer any questions that are not germane to the testimony you have submitted here. OK. You may continue.

Mr. ROTH. Thank you.

Does the RTC now conclude that conflicts of interest existed in Rose law firm activities in first representing Madison and related persons and subsidiaries and then turning against it to represent the government agencies, FDIC or the RTC?

Mr. RYAN. I think that in connection with the oversight hearings that were held before the Senate Banking Committee, that a copy of the RTC's report was submitted to that committee on that issue, and I don't have anything further to add.

Mr. Roth. What is your opinion on that, sir?

Mr. RYAN. I don't think it is appropriate for me to express an opinion.

Mr. ROTH. Well, you are the Executive Deputy of a very, very important agency

Mr. RYAN. That is correct.
Mr. Roth. I think your opinion is very important.

Mr. RYAN. That is why it is important that I not express it prematurely or express an opinion that might damage either the civil or criminal action that might ultimately be taken.

Mr. ROTH. Knowing what the RTC knows now, would the RTC hire the Rose law firm if it had to do it all over again?

Mr. RYAN. I don't know.
Mr. ROTH. You don't know?

Mr. RYAN. I don't know. I can tell you that initially the Rose law firm was hired by the FDIC, which acted as a conservator during that period of time that FIRREA was being enacted.

Mr. ROTH. Have you talked to Mr. Altman since his meeting at the White House?

Mr. RYAN. Yes.
Mr. Roth. What did he have to say now?

Mr. RYAN. I don't think it is appropriate for me to discuss my conversations with Mr. Altman.

Mr. Roth. Well, do you think it is appropriate for the Congressman to ask those questions? After all, Madison Savings and Loan cost the taxpayers $60 million.

Mr. RYAN. I think it would be highly presumptuous of me to indicate what I thought Congress ought to do.

Mr. ROTH. Do you think that the Rose law firm overbilled RTC?
Mr. RYAN. I don't know.
Mr. ROTH. Have you looked at that?
Mr. RYAN. It is a matter that I assume is being looked at.
Mr. Roth. I am sorry?

Mr. RYAN. It is a matter that in the context of everything else is being looked at.

Mr. ROTH. What does that mean? Can you translate that for me?

Mr. RYAN. No, I don't think it is appropriate for me to go beyond that.

Mr. ROTH. In other words, you won't answer the question.
Mr. RYAN. I think I did.
Mr. Roth. Well, I didn't

Mr. RYAN. I answered it to the degree that I think I am able to answer it given the current status of matters relating to that.

Mr. ROTH. What is the current status of matters?

Mr. RYAN. There is a special investigator that has been appointed by the Justice Department. There are matters that are being reviewed by the RTC related to possible recoveries on monies that the taxpayers paid in the resolution of Madison. And I am not

Chairman FLAKE. Do you have a MWOBs question before your time expires?

Mr. ROTH. You know, Mr. Ryan, I am trying to be as kind as I can to you. What strikes me as being odd is that we have got Mr. Altman going down to the White House to give a heads-up briefing to the people at the White House, including Mrs. Clinton's Chief of Staff, and they give him a heads-up briefing and you can't come before Congress and be more forthcoming. That seems very strange to me.

Mr. RYAN. Mr. Chairman, I don't know that-
Chairman FLAKE. I have asked the witness to come.

Mr. RYAN. How much more of this we need to go through? This is not a matter that we came here prepared to discuss.

Mr. ROTH. We are here in a public hearing before a congressional committee. I think we have got every right. We have a duty to ask these questions.

Chairman FLAKE. Mr. Roth, I asked the witnesses to supply answers to particular questions for this hearing. And I think I have been very fair to you. I think I have been just in being judicious with the time, but I think that you have taken full advantage and I think you have—your time has expired.

Mr. ROTH. Well, Mr. Chairman, this is a very serious situation. We have got the people here. I think they have an obligation to

Chairman FLAKE. Mr. Roth, I asked them to come and to submit testimony. We have asked questions regarding that testimony. And I think your time is expired.

Mr. Roth. But we haven't gotten any answers, Mr. Chairman.

Chairman FLAKE. You have gotten answers to what I have asked them to answer to in this particular hearing.

Mr. Roth. Well, Mr. Chairman, I am most disappointed that we have the gag rule on this subcommittee. I must say in my years at Congress this is the first time that we have been gagged and we have had some serious hearings

Chairman FLAKE. I think I have been very fair to you, Mr. Roth, and I certainly appreciate your presence and your involvement and your role with this subcommittee, and I would hope that you would not feel you have been gagged when for the last 8 minutes you have followed a line of questions that had nothing to do with this hearing.

Mr. ROTH. Mr. Chairman, everything it-
Chairman FLAKE. The hearing is adjourned. Thank you.
[Whereupon, at 11:25 a.m., the hearing was adjourned.]

APPENDIX

March 2, 1994

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