Have you had any trouble down there getting equipment and the things that you need? I refer to the standpoint of making it available. Whether you can get it in or not I do not know. Has the program been supported adequately insofar as money, materials, et cetera, are concerned, or would you care to answer that?

Admiral TYREE. I would say, sir, that we have had fairly adequate support. We have our money problems. What I said sort of jokingly was that we have been criticized from time to time, perhaps for thinking more about getting ahead with the operation than about our saving some of our equipment. I really did not mean to imply there had been any severe criticism in this connection. I was just pointing out that sometimes the operating requirements are such that you have to have something in a hurry. So you may have to get a piece of equipment that you know is reliable; you would not want to send, for example, a tractor from Byrd Station to Pole Station, as we did a year ago, that we did not know was reliable. We sent the newest tractors we had on that trip.

But these old pieces of equipment do have uses, and we use them until they are completely worn out. We take lots of our equipment back to Christchurch to be repaired when it gets beyond our capability of repair on the ice. We used to send some of it back to Davisville, but now we have been trying to save that transportation cost. To answer your specific question, sir, I would say that we have had extremely good support from the Department of Defense and the Navy in attempting to provide us with the funds we need. I feel at times, though, we could have a better funding procedure because while the National Science Foundation has its money appropriated in a line item in the budget, our money is provided by the bureaus in the normal funding structure of the Navy. I think it would be well to have this in sort of a package in some separate line in the budget.

Mr. HALEY. In other words, more or less a direct appropriation so you would know what you had.

Admiral TYREE. Yes, I would still want it to come through the Department of Defense that part that applies to Navy resources. Mr. HALEY. You would know what you had available and could reach in and get it when you needed it, when at times there might be redtape and delays in going through the heads of agencies, and so forth. Admiral TYREE. Yes.

Mr. HALEY. I think this work you are doing down there is so valuable that certainly it is an area of the world about which we need to know a great deal more. I would hope if there is anything the Congress can do to lessen your burden, so to speak, you will let us know about it.

Admiral TYREE. Mr. Haley, the greatest thing we could have that could help us this is not the proper place to ask for it, I knowI need more C-130's. That airplane has revolutionized logistic support in the Antarctic. We have four of them in our Navy air squadron. We very badly need two of them as photoconfigured planes to replace the old Neptune aircraft which, as we know from our Wilkes experience, is not the safest plane to use. We need at least two more cargo planes. I know this is not the place to say this, but I preach it on every occasion that I have an opportunity to mention it because I think this is the most important logistic tool we have in the Antarctic today.

Mr. HALEY. Just keep preaching that and maybe somebody, afte all, will hear you and this equipment will be available. I would hop so, anyway. I thank the gentleman from Pennsylvania for yielding Mr. O'BRIEN. You mention a number of volunteers up there. was quite impressed at the South Pole Station in regard to the sta tlingly difficult situation there when the men emerged from unde ground. It was pretty rough. Then they had to sleep and es underground. Do any of the military personnel in the Antarct receive hardship pay?

Admiral TYREE. No, sir; they do not-not the military personne Mr. O'BRIEN. Do any of the civilian workers there receive hard ship pay?

Admiral TYREE. The civil service employees I believe get-I d not know whether it is called hardship pay-more pay for doing th same job in the Antarctic than for doing that job in the United State Mr. O'BRIEN. Very often those receiving this additional pay an working side by side with volunteer military personnel who do no receive it; is that correct?

Admiral TYREE. That is correct, sir.

Mr. O'BRIEN. To me it is something I cannot understand. I kno when I was down there I wrote a report on it and I emphasized in I am sure a volunteer does not particularly take that into considers tion, but I do think the people in the Congress and the administratio should take into consideration that people have volunteered for th extraordinarily difficult mission there, and I know what they say tha if you give it there, you will have it at the DEW line and all ove creation.

However, this is something that I am sure the American publi would approve 100 percent. I have never been able to understan why a man doing a difficult and dangerous job, because he wears uniform or is entitled to wear one, should not be given the same con sideration as a civilian. I am not asking you to join in my sermon o this, but I feel strongly on it.

Mr. HALEY. Will the gentleman yield?

Mr. SAYLOR. I will yield, but I want to comment that I am de lighted to have you join my company. I introduced a bill to giv these people that extra pay. The Navy is in favor of it, but if any body can understand the Air Force he is better than I in more way than one. The Air Force is opposed to it. I do not think there is an comparison at all. I have been in portions of the DEW line. Th people up there do not suffer the same kind of privation that th people do who are here.

The best example we had was the difficulty you had when you ha to go in and get that man out last year, the Russian that suddenly go sick. Up on the DEW line you have almost year-round transporta tion back home. You just do not have it down in the Antarctic Once the night shuts in, you are there until daylight comes 6 month later. Now I yield to the gentleman.

Mr. HALEY. Off the record. (Discussion off the record.)

Mr. O'BRIEN. Mr. Durno.

Mr. DURNO. I want to thank you, Admiral, for your remarks. am the individual that used to live next door to your brother, as yo will recall from our conversation last year. After witnessing th moving pictures that you showed us last year, they were shipped t

3G. Pierce and Mr. Tucker, and those pictures were shown many res and were thoroughly enjoyed.

There is no physical contact between our organization in the Antarctic and the Russians other than those two planes?

Admiral TYREE. No, sir; their bases are long distances from ours. We do not undertake lightly a trip to go from one place to another. Last year we did make a trip with one of our planes to the Russian ase. Two of the Russian planes came through McMurdo. Russian plane came back to McMurdo in January. That was the ly contact.

Mr. DURNO. Is there any collaborative effort on the part of our vientists with the Russian scientists?

Admiral TYREE. I forgot to mention one thing. There is an exGange scientific program at Mirny and at our stations. Each year the National Academy of Sciences arranges for an exchange with the Russian National Academy. This past season we had a scientist at Mirny; the Russian scientist was the one who had to be taken out Byrd on account of ill health. We have a scientist at Mirny now, Dr. Matt Pryor, a biologist. The Russians sent one down for the summer but did not leave him at McMurdo, Dr. Astapenko, a Teteorologist.

Mr. DURNO. Do you observe any medical problems with the men wintering over, any medical problems in particular that appear? Admiral TYREE. The health of the people in the wintering-over oup has always been extremely good. They do not have the normal ruses and bugs, and so on, that we have after the winter sets in. They all seem to get pretty well acclimated.

Mr. DURNO. How much medical personnel do you have?

Admiral TYREE. We have a doctor and a corpsman at each of the rland stations and Cape Hallett. We have a doctor and I forget st how many corpsmen in the wintering-over group at McMurdo. We have a much more elaborate wintering-over setup at McMurdo than at the other stations.

Mr. DURNO. Is there any difficulty at all between the various gencies of our Government in the handling of the various affairs carried on down there in the program?

Admiral TYREE. Mr. Durno, on the continent itself I think the proram works very smoothly. It is a cooperative program. There are se things about it I do not like. For instance, in Greenland, at Camp Century, there is a research facility. Every person that goes Greenland to visit one of their installations up there, to work at one of their installations, is under, you might say, the same kind of command you have in wartime where people are in the theater of perations.

We do not have exactly that same thing in the Antarctic. Sometunes I am a little concerned that it is a little bit too loose. However, a works all right down there.

If I might digress for a moment, I would like to say that for 2 years I have testified in the hearings before this committee on the bill that relates to the Antarctic Commission. I have been asked about this subject you have just asked me. My job was to attempt to make the present system work and I thought we should give it time to settle down and see how it would work.

I feel, based on my 3 years of experience in the Antarctic and in the Antarctic program back here in Washington, that there is need for a more closely knit coordination. I feel this would benefit the program.

The mechanics of doing this could be done with a commission. A co mission, however, would be a new agency and would add overhead the program. If it can be done with existing agencies, it probab would be cheaper, and if it could be done effectively, it would be ju as good.

I think to attain the best results in the interest of the United Stat and within the framework of the Antarctic Treaty we should have more closely knit coordination than the present loose working arrang ments we have.

Mr. O'BRIEN. Would the gentleman yield?

Mr. DURNO. Yes.

Mr. O'BRIEN. Then you believe that the time is ripe for somethi approaching the commission idea?

Admiral TYREE. As I say, Mr. Chairman, if it can be worked o within the framework of present organizations, I think it would cheaper and you would avoid overhead. But I feel if we had commission, I would certainly make this reservation. I would s that the present Commission bill would have to be changed to pern the National Science Foundation to retain control of their resourc and their program and to permit the Department of Defense to reta control of its resources, the resources it must use and those which c be made available. But I feel there is need for a more closely ki policy direction to determine the things that we should do in t Antarctic.

Mr. O'BRIEN. I asked the gentleman to yield because that is important point. As the admiral knows, we have to some exte held off on this Commission plan because you yourself said, Admir on several occasions you were not quite sure.

Admiral TYREE. That is correct. As I said in my testimony la year and in my testimony the year before, I felt that in my job, n job was to try to make the present arrangement work, and that should have enough time to make it work.

It is my feeling, after my 3 years of command, that these arrang ments are workable; they have worked, but sometimes I think it h been a little bit loose. I think a closely knit policy coordination wou be highly desirable. But I am not sure this cannot be worked o within the present organizational structure of government.

Mr. DURNO. Admiral, how many agencies of our Government a down there engaged in this enterprise?

Admiral TYREE. Do you mind if I do not answer that in speci numbers? I will try to tell you what agencies there are.

Of course, the National Science Foundation is responsible for c ordinating and running an integrated scientific program. They ha the responsibility, the principal responsibility, for science in t Antarctic.

The Department of Defense is responsible for supporting th program. In doing this, we use all the military services within th Department of Defense. So they are all involved.

The Department of Commerce is involved because they have a extensive weather program, which is funded and sponsored by th National Science Foundation, of course.

Department of the Interior has the Geological Survey. They hav the responsibility for mapping. They have an extensive mappin program.

Mr. DURNO. Is NASA down there?

Admiral TYREE. NASA has not had any specific projects down here as yet. There is no reason why they should not.

Mr. DURNO. The reason I asked that question is I think we were old last year that there were certain atmospheric conditions that isted in the Antarctic that might be more favorable for space ploration and shots to the moon, et cetera, in Antarctica than sewhere on the earth.

Admiral TYREE. That is true, sir. However, in my opinion to ount a space shot in the Antarctic would be such a tremendous ogistic endeavor that I just cannot conceive of it. I suppose if that as the only place you could do it safely, you would go to that effort to do it, but it would be a tremendously difficult thing to produce a Tape Canaveral in the Antarctic.

There are things, though, in the Antarctic that I think may be Interesting to NASA sometime. The environmental living down there s probably closer to the moon than any other place you could go on earth. Of course, they can produce these things artificially, but you have certainly a natural environment down there that can teach people to exist under very isolated and rigorous conditions.

Mr. DURNO. I would ask you one final question. I believe you said last year, or at least somebody testifying before this committee said, that the next 3 or 4 or 5 years would be devoted entirely to scientific studies. At the end of that period there might be the need of or the possibility of the development of certain elements of military activity which might be of military advantage to this country. Could you comment on that?

Admiral TYREE. I do not recall that testimony, sir, but there can be no military activity in the Antarctic as long as we respect the treaty and as long as the other countries respect it. That is ruled out by the treaty.

Mr. DURNO. I believe the National Science Foundation people said nothing could be done there in the next 4 or 5 years except scientific activity.

Admiral TYREE. For the duration of the treaty, there are certain things that are ruled out-military activity, military bases, military or nuclear explosions, or military maneuvers. That sort of thing is

all ruled out.

But article 1 of the treaty provides that military personnel and forces may be used, as they are being used now, to support scientific work. There are, however, activities other than pure science that can be done. The treaty says nothing about commercial activities. I think we are going to have tourism there someday. I do not know what would happen if somebody found gold. I really do not.

There are exploratory missions that need to be undertaken which are not necessarily pure science. There are other things I could mention.

Mr. DURNO. Specifically what I had in mind is I have heard that it might be desirable at some time in the future to have a station which 4 would redirect missiles or direct them more accurately as they came over the pole.

Admiral TYREE. This is always a possibility, sir. This has been mentioned from time to time. But under the treaty this should not be done, and under the treaty we have a right of inspection which I think is unique as far as treaties go.