or interrogate the military intelligence people from the Minister of Defense. It seems to me there are those three who ought to be interviewed, I believe is the phrase that is used, rather than the word interrogate, in this instance. But I believe that at least that should be pursued, in addition to what they are doing in trying to get the return of the two from Taiwan.

I understand there may be one in the Philippines. I think, again, we ought to be pursuing that as well.

Mr. SOLARZ. In your view, do you believe that the murder of Henry Liu would either require us or would justify a decision pursuant to the amendment to the Arms Export Control Act which was adopted a few years ago prohibiting arms sales to countries that engage in a consistent pattern of harassment and intimidation, to actually cut off future arms sales to Taiwan?

Mr. MINETA. Mr. Chairman, my feeling is yes. I recognize that your amendment says a consistent pattern of intimidation and harassment. The question is, Is what happened in the instance of the Carnegie professor, or is this incident, is this a consistent pattern? But in any event, to me the importance of this incident is enough to establish that this is that kind of a pattern.

Mr. SOLARZ. I am not prepared, myself, at this point, to reach that conclusion, but I have no hesitancy in saying that I am personally tired of holding hearings on the murder of either permanent residents or American citizens by the authorities on Taiwan or by their hired guns, and as you so eloquently pointed out. This is simply not acceptable behavior, as it would be equally unacceptable if it were done by any other government or service, whether it was the KGB, the Muhabarad, the Mossad, the MI-5, or whatever other names these governments may have throughout the world.

Mr. MINETA. One comment I would like to make. It is my understanding that it is the Daly City Police who have the lead in the investigation, and the FBI is being cooperative with them. I don't believe that the FBI is taking an independent course in terms of the investigation, but that they are giving of their supportive services to the Daly City Police.

Mr. SOLARZ. Mr. Leach.

Mr. LEACH. Let me just begin by echoing Mr. Solarz's observation that your statement and your position here represent a real credit to the Congress, Norman, and I think we are all very proud of your contribution in this body. I think you have very properly looked at the larger perspective.

Obviously we have a tragedy for a family, but more importantly, we have an issue in American terms of equal meting out of justice for all groups in our society. And here, as one looks at the Justice Department, I think one ought to be very careful in understanding that there is an issue of the investigation of a murder from the FBI's perspective, but there is also a civil rights issue that other parts of the Justice Department might well want to take a very careful look at.

In terms of a larger perspective as well, I think there is a question that has to relate to how a Government may become implicated in a crime of this nature and what kind of a system that Government has. And here, I think, from America's perspective, we ought to be looking at the Government of Taiwan and saying,

maybe you ought to start providing the kind of safeguards within your own society that make this type of action not only unlikely to happen, but precluded by similar constitutional checks and balances that we would expect of a comparable type of society.

Third, in a larger perspective, I think it is important for all of us as citizens to note, particularly as we look at the Aquino incident in the Philippines, and Kim Dae Jung's return to Korea, that one aspect of being the greatest democracy in the world is that people come here to flourish in a field of ideas that is not available to them in their home countries. Some foreign governments actually do have proper reason to be concerned that they are in jeopardy from free-flowing ideas, but that jeopardy ought to be encouraged, not discouraged by the United States.

After all, there may be a Sun Yat Sen who is studying today at Berkeley, Carnegie or maybe at the University of Iowa. In that regard, many foreign leaders have studied in the United States or have had to enter periods of exile in the United States, and we have a responsibility to be protective of their rights here, whether they are from Taiwan or Poland or Nigeria, wherever it may be. In that sense, this incident is more than an Asian issue. It goes right to the heart of the kind of society that we have.

In any regard, let me also conclude, as our chairman did, that one of the concerns that this committee ought to have, is to be concerned about the issue, placed in perspective, but not necessarily jeopardize the individuals on the island whom our society has such a great vested interest in protecting the rights of. It might be a little premature to call for the ending of arms sales because, after all, they have implications for the Government in power, but they also have implications for the rights of the people themselves who many of us suspect should have greater constitutional guarantees. Anyway, let me just conclude with that as an observation. I have no questions but I thank you for your testimony.

Mr. MINETA. Thank you.

Mr. SOLARZ. Mr. Dymally.

Mr. DYMALLY. Mr. Chairman, I have a question but I would like to save it for the State Department.

Mr. SOLARZ. Mr. Lantos.

LIU'S WRITINGS

Mr. LANTOS. I do have a question, Mr. Chairman.

First, I too want to commend my friend and colleague and neighbor for not only his eloquent testimony, but for his outstanding principal work in this body.

Congressman Mineta, you served on our Intelligence Committee for a number of years, with great distinction, so you are not unfamiliar with matters relating to intelligence.

I wonder what your speculation is of the rationale that could have gone into the decision to assassinate Mr. Liu, because whatever negative impact his writings may have had, and whatever negative impact their prospective writings might have had on individuals in leading positions in Taiwan, they fade into insignificance compared to the negative impact of this outrageous assassination,

and I am wondering if you would care to share with us your private views as to why this effort was made to occur.

Mr. MINETA. Let me say first of all I don't think I would be in a position to indicate what the rationale might have been. Frankly, even from the material that we have had or have looked at over a period of time, while serving on the Intelligence Committee, I am not sure that I would be able to indicate, even where it has existed, where I would be able to share that. But I think it would be very difficult for anyone here to try and figure out what would be the rationale.

This is not the first time that an attempt has been made by the Taiwanese Government to purchase a work, or work that is critical of their Government or of individuals high up in their Government, so I think that is a pattern that we have seen in the past.

Possibly you will hear, I believe, an offer that had come in the past from the Taiwanese Government to even buy this work that Mr. Liu was working on, or had worked on in the past. There had been other examples where the Taiwanese Government has attempted to buy arms or books that were critical of people high up in their Government. I think that pattern exists, but as to what would motivate the three who are allegedly involved from the Defense Ministry Intelligence Bureau to have gone this route and ordered it, if that is the case, that I would not be able to answer. Mr. LANTOS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. SOLARZ. Thank you.

Mr. Roth.

Mr. ROTH. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Mineta, I too want to compliment you on your fine testimony. It was very well done. As one of the leaders in our body, we are all proud of you and your legal training. Your legal reasoning I think brings a lot to our testimony today.

I notice in your testimony that you mentioned Mr. Chin. We are all saddened by any murder that takes place in our country, but I don't find that Mr. Chin's murder is analogous really to Mr. Liu's. I fail to see the connection.

Whether Mr. Liu would have been a Polish citizen or citizen of Asian ancestry, I don't think it would have made any difference. In our society today, I think we are much too lenient with our criminals. There are many times when the criminal walks the street before the victim is buried. I know we have been somewhat harsh on the administration today, but in his State of the Union message last night, the President addressed part of your problem. He said that there is an explosion of violent crime in this country, and we must do something about it.

I would like to ask you, from your experience and from your legal background, do you think that we should have stiffer sentencing-that is going to mandatory sentencing? In the President's analysis last night, was he correct?

Mr. MINETA. First of all, Mr. Roth, let me say that I am not an attorney. I am by background an insurance broker.

Mr. ROTH. You see how eloquent you are. I thought you were an attorney.

Mr. MINETA. I guess the connection that I was trying to establish between the Chen case and the Liu case is, frankly, the lack of re

sponse from the Attorney General's office as to whether or not a U.S. citizen's rights are being violated here, and second, the issue of a foreign national returning to their home country, and claiming the haven of that country to protect themselves from the laws here.

Now, what about, as you say, mandatory sentences? I come from local government where I was the mayor of a city. We had in California what is known as an indeterminate sentence, and frankly, as a local official, I opposed that and felt that there ought to be mandatory sentences rather than the indeterminate. And so from that perspective, I think my personal views on the enforcement of laws really doesn't stand second to anyone else.

Mr. ROTH. Thank you very much.

Mr. SOLARZ. Mr. Solomon.

Mr. SOLOMON. Mr. Chairman, let me also commend our colleague on his testimony. I know it is sincere and that he is one of the people that I admire and respect in this Congress. I do take a couple of exceptions with some of the things you said; Norm:

The first instance was when you made a comparison to someone of Polish ancestry being assassinated. Then you mentioned, I think, someone of Iranian descent, and you mentioned the Ayatollah. I hope that you weren't comparing the leaders of the Taiwan Republic of China Government to the Ayatollah. I don't think you were. Mr. MINETA. What I am doing is trying to compare a U.S. citizen being done in by an agent of a foreign country regardless of whether it is SAVAK, the KGB or any country. It is outrageous regardless of where it happens as long as it is a U.S. citizen that is being done in.

ALLEGATIONS OF DISCRIMINATION

Mr. SOLOMON. The other issue you talked about was discrimination against people of Asian descent in the American courts. I would have to say that I have a lot of constituents who are of Asian descent. I don't find them feeling that way. They blend right in with all other people of different ancestry, and I think maybe the problem that you mention is because we are soft on crime in America and we have been for along time. Our courts have been very, very liberal. Maybe what we need to do is tighten up the laws and the enforcement of those laws.

For example, I would be interested-you don't have to tell mehow your constitutents feel about the death penalty. We need the death penalty in these United States for Federal crimes such as this. I really question that if we do bring back the two gangsters interrogated by the FBI the other day in Taiwan in cooperation with the Taiwan Government, how they would suffer before the U.S. courts, and I think we ought to keep that in mind.

Lastly, one of the reasons I just find it so difficult to think that the higher echelon members of the Republic of China Government would in any way be involved in this case is because I try to put myself in their place. I look at how Mr. Liu had changed his philosophy over the last 10 years. The first edition of the book he wrote was highly critical of the Taiwan Government. The last publica

tion, the one that is in print now, has changed, been moderated tremendously.

Now, that has to be voluntary on the part of Mr. Liu and so I say, well, why in the world would anyone want to do anything to him if he has moderated this way? So that is why I think we have to keep an open mind and not be making statements like the "hired guns of the Taiwan Government" heard here a few minutes ago. I don't think we know that yet and I think we ought to keep an open mind on it.

Mr. MINETA. Let me say that I really would like to hear from the President on this issue. We haven't heard anything from the administration and that is one of the things I would like. But I think what I would like to speak to as maybe an ancillary issue is the rising trend of violence against Asian Americans. It may not be apparent to a lot of people but it is happening. Whether it is the Vietnamese in the gulf coast port whose fishing or shrimp boats are being blown up, or a student in Davis, CA. being murdered, or fights and other kinds of vandalism and fires-arson in San Jose, CA. or in Detroit-there are innumerable examples in the last several years occurring right now and to me, this has to be stopped. Whether it is a Swastika that is painted on a garage, or an act of violence against Asian-Americans in any form, to me it has got to be stopped.

That is why I want to speak out, whether it is on this case, or any others that occur, if justice is being done. I felt that there was an injustice in 1942 when as a 10-year-old boy I was put into a camp, not charged with any crime, but moved summarily from the west coast. Out of that experience came my very strong feelings. No rancor or bitterness about what happened, but a very, very strong feeling about what the Constitution means to a citizen of the United States. To a lot of people it is a piece of paper, but to me, it is a living document that we have to every day defend and put life into and so that is why I feel very strongly about these

issues.

Mr. SOLOMON. A good statement.

Mr. SOLARZ. I am pleased now to call upon another new member of the subcommittee, who I am delighted will be joining the committee in its work during the 99th session, Mr. Bereuter.

Mr. BEREUTER. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, for your welcome. I am pleased to be here.

I had a chance to catch up, to read your testimony, Congressman Mineta, and I thank you for it.

I have no questions, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. SOLARZ. If there are no further questions from the members of the committee, I want to thank our very distinguished colleague, Mr. Mineta, for his testimony today.

Norm, I know all of us will take very seriously what you have to say and I can only reiterate that you have made us all proud to be Americans.

Mr. MINETA. Thank you very much.

Mr. SOLARZ. Our next witness will be William Brown, the Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for East Asian and Pacific Affairs.

As Mr. Brown takes his place at the witness table, let me say to my colleagues on the subcommittee that I am going to ask the staff